British Infantry Officers Battle Swords in the 19th C...and up to 1914

Radboud · 29th October 2025, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

A Scots Grey 1796 disc hilt from Waterloo. Heavy and deadly.

This is a misconception, the weight of the 1796 Pattern heavy cavalry troopers sword is about on par with many cavalry sabres of the time.

About a hundred to one hundred, fifty grams heavier than the 1796 Pattern light cavalry troopers, but lighter by the same amount to the French An XI light cavalry sabre and nearly three hundred grams lighter than the AN XIII Sabre of the line.

Bryce · 29th October 2025, 10:26 PM

Quote:

As a matter of interest I was looking at pistols and other personal weapons used by what is now used as skills for skirmishers...used in close quarter battle drills particularly in fighting in built up areas....and that there was a large, essentially available list of pistols and even twelve bore shotgun trench clearing specialist weapons being used in WW1.so that the suggestion to return swords and carry a swagger stick seems just mind boggling!!! The plot thickens.
Peter Hudson.

Peter I think you just answered your main question yourself. This is the real reason for the demise of the sword. Any of these are a much better weapon and much easier to carry than a sword.
Cheers,
Bryce

Will M · 30th October 2025, 12:08 AM

Officers were a snipers target, wearing a sword was like waving a red flag. I can't recall the reference to this, there was a British officer wearing his sword engaging a German soldier, but as he got to him he decided to kick him in the groin. He said something like it was not in the best military tradition but quite effective.

Peter Hudson · 30th October 2025, 03:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryce

Peter I think you just answered your main question yourself. This is the real reason for the demise of the sword. Any of these are a much better weapon and much easier to carry than a sword.
Cheers,
Bryce

Yes I know what you mean; But its 2025...in 1914 they didnt have 20/20 hindsight...Arguably the greatest military technical and tactical mind was Jacob...of Jacobs Horse... inventor of probably the the best 12 bore shotgun ever invented...and with an incredible pair of rifled barrels that could send its bullets down range 2 kilometers...accurately...and who had developed a form of Cavalry based tactics fighting not in uniform but by blending in... in civilian clothes masquerading as civilian caravans through deserts and mountains...Thinking out of the box was his great strength...so with some luck he could have managed the disaster of 1914... Sadly it wasnt to be as he died before his special gun could complete its trials...however trench warfare did invent an excelllent WW1 trench shotgun and pistol design moved at pace. However I stick to my guns on this as clearly it was a mess if not an outright disgrace and Officers in the battlefield deserved a sharper better action plan than send your swords home and carry your swaggerstick instead.
Peter Hudson.
ps. However ...I need a new camera as my old one is kaput!...and I need to rattle on and get .some pictures of 19th C British Infantry Officers Swords ...anyone else is invited to send it theirs .I am sure there are lots.

Jim McDougall · 30th October 2025, 03:45 AM

John Jacob designed the double barrel cavalry carbine in 1854, but it was apparently somehow destined for South Africa. That same year, through requests for supply from the Malabar Police in India, these went there instead. They ended up issued to the 12th Lancers who were posted to Madras.

The East India Company acquiring these with Jacob designing the unusual sword bayonet which was to be attached to these. The EIC contracted with S Swinburne & son to produce these. While an interesting concept, it was apparently found these were more effective as short swords than with the use in bayonet manner.

While the bayonet in less cumbersome design remained effective, later sword types were shorter and better suited for use at the end of a rifle. Infantry continued with the bayonet instead of the sword, while cavalry still maintained the sword for some time.

I agree with Peter, if more attention was paid to innovative officers who understood the requirements and more effective application of tactics and weaponry in accord with the circumstances in which they were to be employed, far more effective results would have resulted. There are countless records of military blunders and disastrous outcomes which came from narrow minded adherence to misguided rules and regulations. Situations are dynamic and volatile, and not 'one size fits all'.

Bryce · 30th October 2025, 05:31 AM

Here is Osborn and Gunby's attempt to produce a serious cut and thrust blade. Known to collectors as the "Osborn and Gunby blade".
Cheers,
Bryce

Tim Simmons · 30th October 2025, 04:32 PM

Some really super swords being shown in this thread.

Peter Hudson · 31st October 2025, 04:25 AM

Hello Tim , I quite agree , in fact these exhibits are the best I have ever seen including the weapon being studied which when fired ...ranged at 2,000 yards must have been incredible.

Regards,
Peter Hudson.

To which I add;
A British, Jacob’s Double Barrel Rifle Carbine, From The Early British Raj. Period. In fact the weapon I speak of was an experimental version and rather a special one off piece but it was very similar and I thought to include the write up...

The gun is the very inspiration for the famous Military Jacob's Rifle, used by the Scinde Irregular Force, Jacob’s Rifles, in the early 1850's, and this was commissioned for an officer of the regiment.

A writer of the period described shooting a rifle of this form:
“The recoil is by no means pleasant. Jacob recommended a powder charge of some 2 drams 68 grains of gunpowder! This rifle does not seem to have any advantages at sporting ranges; but for military purposes it has been strongly recommended. Especially in reference to the explosive shells which are used with it. The shells require a short stout barrel, and cannot be used with a long thin one, like the Enfield still, Enfield-style rifles were actually manufactured with Jacob rifling, and seemed relatively popular. For killing large animals, like the elephant or rhinoceros, they are particularly qualified; and I should strongly recommend elephant hunters to examine the merits of this rifle. This rifle was made to accompany the howdah pistol as the big game hunting rifle to be equally at home on foot, on horseback or while standing in a howdah on one's elephant. But also for perfect use in Indian irregular cavalry by gentlemen officers.

The Jacob's rifle was designed by General Jacobs of the Honourable East India Co. who was so admired and respected by all who knew him, for his intelligence and skill of command, he had a city named after him, in modern day Pakistan, called Jacobabad. He had spent 25 years improving rifled firearms, carrying on experiments unrivalled even by public bodies. A range of 200 yards sufficed in cantonments, but at Jacobabad he had to go into the desert to set up butts at a range of 2000 yards. He went for a four grooved rifle and had numerous experimental guns manufactured in London by the leading gunsmith George Daw and completely at his expense. Jacob, like Joseph Whitworth, was renowned not only as a soldier but as a mathematician, and his rifle was as unconventional as its designer. Rather than using a small .45 caliber bore Jacob stayed with more conventional .57-58 caliber (Bill Adams theorizes that this would allow use of standard service ammo in a pinch). In any case his rifle used four deep grooves and a conical bullet with corresponding lugs. Though unusual the Jacob's rifle, precision made in London by master gunsmiths like George Daw, quickly gained a reputation for accuracy at extended ranges. They appealed in in particular to wealthy aristocratic scientists like Lord Kelvin, who swore by his. Jacob wanted to build a cannon on the same pattern, but died early at age 45.
A few Jacob’s were used during the American Civil War, and those were privately owned, usually by men able to afford the best. There is one account of one of Berdan’s men using one (the chaplain, Lorenzo Barber), who kept one barrel of his double rifle loaded with buckshot and the other with ball.

Jacob's Rifles was a regiment founded by Brigadier John Jacob CB in 1858. Better known as the commandant of the Sind Horse and Jacob's Horse, and the founder of Jacobabad, the regiment of rifles he founded soon gained an excellent reputation. It became after partition part of the Pakistani Army, whereas Jacob's Horse was assigned to the Indian Army. A number of his relatives and descendants served in the Regiment, notably Field Marshal Sir Claud Jacob, Lieutenant-Colonel John Jacob and Brigadier Arthur Legrand Jacob, Claud's brother.

As commander of the Scinde Irregular Horse, Jacob had become increasingly frustrated with the inferior weapons issued to his Indian cavalrymen. Being a wealthy man, he spent many years and much money on developing the perfect weapon for his 'sowars'. He eventually produced the rifle that bears his name. It could be sighted to 2000 yards
(1 830m), and fire explosive bullets designed to destroy artillery limbers. It also sported a 30 inch (76,2cm) bayonet based on the Scottish claymore.

Jacob was an opinionated man who chose to ignore changing trends in firearm development, and he adopted a pattern of rifling that was both obsolete and troublesome. Nevertheless, his influence was such that during the Mutiny he was permitted to arm a new regiment with his design of carbine. It was named Jacob's Rifles.

Orders for the manufacture of the carbine and bayonet were placed in Britain, and all was set for its demonstration when Jacob died. In the hope the East India Company would honour the order, production continued for a little over a year.

30th October 2025, 03:45 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,724	Jacobs rifle and sword bayonet John Jacob designed the double barrel cavalry carbine in 1854, but it was apparently somehow destined for South Africa. That same year, through requests for supply from the Malabar Police in India, these went there instead. They ended up issued to the 12th Lancers who were posted to Madras. The East India Company acquiring these with Jacob designing the unusual sword bayonet which was to be attached to these. The EIC contracted with S Swinburne & son to produce these. While an interesting concept, it was apparently found these were more effective as short swords than with the use in bayonet manner. While the bayonet in less cumbersome design remained effective, later sword types were shorter and better suited for use at the end of a rifle. Infantry continued with the bayonet instead of the sword, while cavalry still maintained the sword for some time. I agree with Peter, if more attention was paid to innovative officers who understood the requirements and more effective application of tactics and weaponry in accord with the circumstances in which they were to be employed, far more effective results would have resulted. There are countless records of military blunders and disastrous outcomes which came from narrow minded adherence to misguided rules and regulations. Situations are dynamic and volatile, and not 'one size fits all'. Attached Images

30th October 2025, 05:31 AM	#6
Bryce Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: North Queensland, Australia Posts: 197	Here is Osborn and Gunby's attempt to produce a serious cut and thrust blade. Known to collectors as the "Osborn and Gunby blade". Cheers, Bryce Attached Images

30th October 2025, 12:08 AM	#3
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 416	Officers were a snipers target, wearing a sword was like waving a red flag. I can't recall the reference to this, there was a British officer wearing his sword engaging a German soldier, but as he got to him he decided to kick him in the groin. He said something like it was not in the best military tradition but quite effective.

30th October 2025, 04:32 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,935	Some really super swords being shown in this thread.

31st October 2025, 04:25 AM	#8
Peter Hudson Member Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 347	Hello Tim , I quite agree , in fact these exhibits are the best I have ever seen including the weapon being studied which when fired ...ranged at 2,000 yards must have been incredible. Regards, Peter Hudson. To which I add; A British, Jacob’s Double Barrel Rifle Carbine, From The Early British Raj. Period. In fact the weapon I speak of was an experimental version and rather a special one off piece but it was very similar and I thought to include the write up... The gun is the very inspiration for the famous Military Jacob's Rifle, used by the Scinde Irregular Force, Jacob’s Rifles, in the early 1850's, and this was commissioned for an officer of the regiment. A writer of the period described shooting a rifle of this form: “The recoil is by no means pleasant. Jacob recommended a powder charge of some 2 drams 68 grains of gunpowder! This rifle does not seem to have any advantages at sporting ranges; but for military purposes it has been strongly recommended. Especially in reference to the explosive shells which are used with it. The shells require a short stout barrel, and cannot be used with a long thin one, like the Enfield still, Enfield-style rifles were actually manufactured with Jacob rifling, and seemed relatively popular. For killing large animals, like the elephant or rhinoceros, they are particularly qualified; and I should strongly recommend elephant hunters to examine the merits of this rifle. This rifle was made to accompany the howdah pistol as the big game hunting rifle to be equally at home on foot, on horseback or while standing in a howdah on one's elephant. But also for perfect use in Indian irregular cavalry by gentlemen officers. The Jacob's rifle was designed by General Jacobs of the Honourable East India Co. who was so admired and respected by all who knew him, for his intelligence and skill of command, he had a city named after him, in modern day Pakistan, called Jacobabad. He had spent 25 years improving rifled firearms, carrying on experiments unrivalled even by public bodies. A range of 200 yards sufficed in cantonments, but at Jacobabad he had to go into the desert to set up butts at a range of 2000 yards. He went for a four grooved rifle and had numerous experimental guns manufactured in London by the leading gunsmith George Daw and completely at his expense. Jacob, like Joseph Whitworth, was renowned not only as a soldier but as a mathematician, and his rifle was as unconventional as its designer. Rather than using a small .45 caliber bore Jacob stayed with more conventional .57-58 caliber (Bill Adams theorizes that this would allow use of standard service ammo in a pinch). In any case his rifle used four deep grooves and a conical bullet with corresponding lugs. Though unusual the Jacob's rifle, precision made in London by master gunsmiths like George Daw, quickly gained a reputation for accuracy at extended ranges. They appealed in in particular to wealthy aristocratic scientists like Lord Kelvin, who swore by his. Jacob wanted to build a cannon on the same pattern, but died early at age 45. A few Jacob’s were used during the American Civil War, and those were privately owned, usually by men able to afford the best. There is one account of one of Berdan’s men using one (the chaplain, Lorenzo Barber), who kept one barrel of his double rifle loaded with buckshot and the other with ball. Jacob's Rifles was a regiment founded by Brigadier John Jacob CB in 1858. Better known as the commandant of the Sind Horse and Jacob's Horse, and the founder of Jacobabad, the regiment of rifles he founded soon gained an excellent reputation. It became after partition part of the Pakistani Army, whereas Jacob's Horse was assigned to the Indian Army. A number of his relatives and descendants served in the Regiment, notably Field Marshal Sir Claud Jacob, Lieutenant-Colonel John Jacob and Brigadier Arthur Legrand Jacob, Claud's brother. As commander of the Scinde Irregular Horse, Jacob had become increasingly frustrated with the inferior weapons issued to his Indian cavalrymen. Being a wealthy man, he spent many years and much money on developing the perfect weapon for his 'sowars'. He eventually produced the rifle that bears his name. It could be sighted to 2000 yards (1 830m), and fire explosive bullets designed to destroy artillery limbers. It also sported a 30 inch (76,2cm) bayonet based on the Scottish claymore. Jacob was an opinionated man who chose to ignore changing trends in firearm development, and he adopted a pattern of rifling that was both obsolete and troublesome. Nevertheless, his influence was such that during the Mutiny he was permitted to arm a new regiment with his design of carbine. It was named Jacob's Rifles. Orders for the manufacture of the carbine and bayonet were placed in Britain, and all was set for its demonstration when Jacob died. In the hope the East India Company would honour the order, production continued for a little over a year.