Another interesting Moro sword

Ian · 25th July 2006, 10:26 PM

Michael:

I think the pictures you show above from the two references clearly illustrate the similarity in style between Artzi's example and the well provenanced published examples. These shorter hilted forms do seem to be attributable, at least in part, to the N. Borneo muslim group (albeit perhaps translocated from Mindanao). Since we are talking basically of transplanted Moro people, the style of carving may be quite similar to Mindanao, but the shorter hilt seems distinctive to N. Borneo.

Ian.

And then there is this one that Dan Wilke and I found in Manila. Where is this hilt from?

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...achmentid=1107

CharlesS · 25th July 2006, 10:55 PM

Very helpful pics Michael. They really go a long way towards making the N. Borneo point.

Thanks!

VVV · 25th July 2006, 11:27 PM

Thanks Charles and Ian,

Sorry if I overloaded this thread with reference pictures. I just felt that one example wasn't significant enough.

Actually I am not convinced yet myself that those hilts didn't once originate in Mindanao.
Several resembling Kampilans are found in Spanish museums, as well as in Leiden, that has been collected in Mindanao.

Regarding the Spanish museums that's my assumption that they were collected in Mindanao because the rest of the weapons exhibited are from the Philippines and the Spanish never colonised North Borneo.
In Leiden the catalogues have been published so it's easy to trace where the the different Kampilans were collected.

Michael

Spunjer · 25th July 2006, 11:56 PM

Quote:

The reason no traditional Dayak design is seen on the Kampilans is that it never was a Dayak sword. The Illanun people were Moros from Mindanao who settled quite late in North Borneo. Already in the early 20th C they were mixed with, and became part of, the Bajau tribe. Like the Illanuns the Bajaus are Muslim and have Malay, not Dayak, origin.
So Kampilans were used by the Moros who was living in Borneo.

interesting topic. one must understand that those tribes mentioned doesn't recognized the imaginary political lines we now as country. they have an allegiance to a certain group, like a sultanate, rather than a country as a whole. i'm sure you folks know that. so, for the sake of arguement that these tribes resided in north borneo at that point in time; would that weapon then be attributed to north borneo? the reason why i said 'point in time' is because these are nomadic tribes. here are a couple of links:

http://litera1no4.tripod.com/badjao_frame.html
http://library.thinkquest.org/C003235/ilanun.html

i understand there's a 'need' to label such sword a specific area where it came from, to have a provenance, but sometimes it just don't fit, so IMHO, it's better to leave it as it is.

CharlesS · 26th July 2006, 12:12 AM

Michael,

If nothing else, this surely hints at a strong line of cross cultural influences, and while we may never know the exact point of origin, this thread makes of good point of the sword being found outside of what is traditionally thought of as "Moroland".

I think these cross cultural ties and trade offs are one of the most interesting aspects of Indo-Malay weaponry...you see it is kerises, in swords, etc. Just when you think you've seen it all, something will pop up to surprise you and fire up the imagination.

Even the barong Artzi pictured likely had its naga motif "imported" from elsewhere, as it is not a common motif in Moro weapons.

VANDOO · 26th July 2006, 03:29 AM

THE LINK TO THE KAMPILIAN IAN POSTED REPRESENTS WHAT I BELIEVE TO BE THE LARGE SEA EAGLE, NO PROOF UNFORTUNATELY. THE DESIGN IN THE EYE RESEMBLES A PATTERN USED IN DAYAK TATOOS I CAN'T SEE THE OTHER DESIGNS WELL ENOUGH TO TELL IF THEY HAVE ANY DAYAK INFLUENCE. THE MANDAU AND THE KAMPILIAN HAVE A LOT OF SIMULARITIES THE BLADE SHAPE, THE FANCY CARVING AND HAIR ON THE POMMELS. THE MORO AND DAYAK SOCIETYS WERE BOTH GREAT SEA FARERS AND OFTEN WORKED TOGETHER AND SOMETIMES FOUGHT SO INFLUENCES WOULD HAVE BEEN EXCHANGED OVER THE YEARS.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS TOO MANY PICTURES IN A POST ON EDGED WEAPONS

KEEP THEM COMING

zelbone · 26th July 2006, 06:02 PM

I won't dismiss the N. Borneo theory......

But, this is a rather large hilt and would be inconsistent with a shorter N. Borneo form. Sure Artzi's example has a less "gaping-jaw" of the crocodile form ( or swiftlet tail), but this is an oversize danganan hilt. And as mentioned by others here this sword was most likely carried by someone of great importance...or by his sword-bearer....in which case the danganan would be representative of his torogan....not a crocodile jaw or swiftlet tail.

25th July 2006, 10:26 PM	#1
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,396	Michael: I think the pictures you show above from the two references clearly illustrate the similarity in style between Artzi's example and the well provenanced published examples. These shorter hilted forms do seem to be attributable, at least in part, to the N. Borneo muslim group (albeit perhaps translocated from Mindanao). Since we are talking basically of transplanted Moro people, the style of carving may be quite similar to Mindanao, but the shorter hilt seems distinctive to N. Borneo. Ian. And then there is this one that Dan Wilke and I found in Manila. Where is this hilt from? http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...achmentid=1107 Last edited by Ian; 25th July 2006 at 10:37 PM.

25th July 2006, 10:55 PM	#2
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	Very helpful pics Michael. They really go a long way towards making the N. Borneo point. Thanks!

25th July 2006, 11:27 PM	#3
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Thanks Charles and Ian, Sorry if I overloaded this thread with reference pictures. I just felt that one example wasn't significant enough. Actually I am not convinced yet myself that those hilts didn't once originate in Mindanao. Several resembling Kampilans are found in Spanish museums, as well as in Leiden, that has been collected in Mindanao. Regarding the Spanish museums that's my assumption that they were collected in Mindanao because the rest of the weapons exhibited are from the Philippines and the Spanish never colonised North Borneo. In Leiden the catalogues have been published so it's easy to trace where the the different Kampilans were collected. Michael

26th July 2006, 12:12 AM	#5
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	Michael, If nothing else, this surely hints at a strong line of cross cultural influences, and while we may never know the exact point of origin, this thread makes of good point of the sword being found outside of what is traditionally thought of as "Moroland". I think these cross cultural ties and trade offs are one of the most interesting aspects of Indo-Malay weaponry...you see it is kerises, in swords, etc. Just when you think you've seen it all, something will pop up to surprise you and fire up the imagination. Even the barong Artzi pictured likely had its naga motif "imported" from elsewhere, as it is not a common motif in Moro weapons.

26th July 2006, 03:29 AM	#6
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THE LINK TO THE KAMPILIAN IAN POSTED REPRESENTS WHAT I BELIEVE TO BE THE LARGE SEA EAGLE, NO PROOF UNFORTUNATELY. THE DESIGN IN THE EYE RESEMBLES A PATTERN USED IN DAYAK TATOOS I CAN'T SEE THE OTHER DESIGNS WELL ENOUGH TO TELL IF THEY HAVE ANY DAYAK INFLUENCE. THE MANDAU AND THE KAMPILIAN HAVE A LOT OF SIMULARITIES THE BLADE SHAPE, THE FANCY CARVING AND HAIR ON THE POMMELS. THE MORO AND DAYAK SOCIETYS WERE BOTH GREAT SEA FARERS AND OFTEN WORKED TOGETHER AND SOMETIMES FOUGHT SO INFLUENCES WOULD HAVE BEEN EXCHANGED OVER THE YEARS. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS TOO MANY PICTURES IN A POST ON EDGED WEAPONS KEEP THEM COMING

26th July 2006, 06:02 PM	#7
zelbone Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: VISAYAS and MINDANAO Posts: 169	I won't dismiss the N. Borneo theory...... But, this is a rather large hilt and would be inconsistent with a shorter N. Borneo form. Sure Artzi's example has a less "gaping-jaw" of the crocodile form ( or swiftlet tail), but this is an oversize danganan hilt. And as mentioned by others here this sword was most likely carried by someone of great importance...or by his sword-bearer....in which case the danganan would be representative of his torogan....not a crocodile jaw or swiftlet tail.