(really) old tulwar with yelman for ID

[francantolin]

Hello everyone, It's been a long time since I posted an item.
Here's a saber I recently found. I find.it interesting.
It's not in very good condition, but I think it's an older model, and the blade has remained very sharp.
the shape with the yelman reminds me of the Mughal origin.
I was able to remove the old black rust patch that had formed, quite a bit of work....
This allowed me to see two identical hallmarks on either side of the blade and another one at the base with a particular shape. The blade is maybe made of wootz.
The hilt is also interesting: old repairs, and I don't know if it's wootz.
There are remnants of koftgari on the end of the pommel.
Do you have any idea of ​​the saber's provenance and age?

[francantolin]

Here the stamps and repair

[francantolin]

.

[serdar]

Dont know age, but i would guess end of 18/ begining 19, with arow pointing more on 19 than 18.
But blade, more markings than blade alone seams to mimic italian blades, that one sign is atempt on marca de mosca sign, and other if im not wrong a pi mark.
Im prety sure it is not wootz.
Usual indian tulwar, it was pined in cross guard, they more often put those on pulwars than on tulwars.
P.s. That wasnt repair, that was a place where guard was atached and curwed to pomel disc in that recesion.

[Jim McDougall]

It is very exciting to see this old tulwar which is characteristic of these northern forms, and likely from latter 18th century, quite possibly earlier. The open hilt was contemporary with those with knuckle guards seen on Mughal tulwar forms of these periods through the next century.

While I may be going out on a limb here, I am inclined to think this may be a Sindhi form possibly of the Balochi Talpur dynasty. The aperture at center of guard was a method of fixation known in these northern swords associated with Afghanistan, and this was a vassal state to the Durrani Empire on Afghanstan. Also, this may be a Mughal example from Delhi regions in the same period.

Without getting further into the geo political complexities, the character of this tulwar corresponds to features of the Afghan weapons and the northern hilt styles .With the blade this appears to be a compelling version of much earlier blade forms which came from late 16th century Italian storta, having to do with the widened tip (yelman). This was of course a Turkic affinity, which was adopted by western blademakers, especially in Styria, who supplied Eastern Europes cutlers.

Those markings on the blade correspond to the twig/marca mosca type in the one nearest the forte, and associated with the Genoan type sickle marks often aligned with GENOA and FRINGIA inscriptions. These were widely copied in Styria from Italian markings and spuriously applied as in the Solingen manner.

Eastern European blades were notably sought by Arab traders, who of course likely had them included in commerce into the ports in India, notably Hyderabad after networking through the various entrepots. This may explain the prevalence of such Italian/Styrian blades and influence into the northern India regions and perhaps these kinds of markings on blades.

It has been well known that the familiar sickle marks commonly occur on the paluoar examples (N. Indian tulwar form) so to see blades following Italian via Styrian style as well as according markings would not be surprising.

In pics, my example of one of these,....your posting WITH markings has secured my opinion of what it actually is! Thank you!

The marking comparison (Boeheim, 1890).

An Afghan paluoar...note the copied Genoan sickle marks, which typically seem to derive from Styrian blades, as opposed to actual Italian blades, which may or may not have directly come into India.

A Mughal tulwar, probably Delhi, showing the open type hilt often favored in their courts. It is known these style open hilts also found favor in Talpur regions. The Shazada Mughal rulers of Delhi
shared the Persian influences that prevailed through Afghan and Mughal courts so obviously Persian shamshirs were as always a highly dominant form.

A tulwar, but hilt of shamshir style, probably this sphere but first quarter 19th c. and the blade is a British M1788 cavalry saber, suggesting of course association with East India Co. This may well be from the court of Shazada Bahadur Shah II or his father Ahmed II of Delhi. Bahadur after his fathers death in 1837 was a pensioner from East India Co.

A British saber c. 1800-05 probably East India Co. officer , note the copy of the yelman of these tulwars, and the profound influence of the Indian sabers.

A bit comprehensive I know, but the tulwar posted here has somehow 'turned on the lights' on these swords I have had but until now, had not connected the dots. Thank you so much! and for readers, thank you for forbearance for my runaway missive.

The page shown from "Swords of the Shazadas and Talpurs" Connoisseur magazine, Nov. 1971, Peter A. Hayes
To clarify, the term Shazada was an honorific title to royal lineage, high standing figures in Persian and Mughal cultures.
The Talpurs were a Baluchi clan in power in Sind from 1783.

[francantolin]

Hello, Many thanks for your comments !

and especially Jim for this wonderful history lesson,
thank you so much !!!

Regarding the repairs Serdar, I was talking about those located on the quillons; there is brass poured into the cracks.

Regarding the mounting hole at the guard with the missing mounting bar, I'm thinking it would be nice to install a new one and maybe add a small silver or brass antique piece
for enlight the hilt , without change the nature of the saber, of course.
That would be cheating, so I'm hesitant; I'll have to find the most appropriate decoration possible...

Again a big thank you and kind regards

[Jim McDougall]

Its been a great history lesson for me as well, Actually when I write here, its after researching and compiling notes, so its learning for me as well, and Im just sharing what I just learned.

As I continued researching, I found that the article on Shazadas and Talpurs was actually toward two separate areas, and that shazada was a term, not a specific group, and used in Persian and Mughal parlance as more a title or reference for sons of rulers etc. This applied to the Mughal specific, in which the Empire by the 18th century was situated mostly in Delhi, and Agra.

What is important regarding the significant yelman which is featured on these blades is this was an affectation which derives traditionally from the Timurids, which of course were the nomadic Turkic tribes moving westward. These tribes carried further to establish the Ottoman Empire, where as we know, the yelman became more pronounced in the pala and kilic.

These tribes branched southward into India and the origins of the Mughal empire, so the yelman on blades was essentially a traditional element which seems to have been carried forward into the 18th century with these blades.
It does not seem the yelman feature prevailed largely into the 19th c.aside from incidental cases.
The Persian shamshir is of course a curved blade which radiuses directly to a sharp point, and there is no yelman whatsoever. This is notable as the Persian influence in Mughal courts was profound, just as in Afghanistan and Sind.
So the yelman was more a traditional carry over recognizing the Timurid ancestry of the Mughals.

The fact that Sind, and its ruling Talpur dynasty, were also with these influences from Persia (Shia Faith) and Mughals, and factoring in the influences from the Durrani (Afghan) Empire, were all elements that position sabers of this type there as well.

The bottom line I suppose is that these tulwars with distinct yelman blade seem to have been prevalent in the 18th century in the Delhi regions with the 'open' hilt such as yours. Those with knuckleguard such as my example may have also been in the same areas including Sind and much of the northwest frontiers. Hyderabad was a key trade entrepot in Sind, so as noted incoming blades from Europe from varied sources likely influenced blades made in neighboring blade production, hence the copied markings especially these Italian marks.

I know, more history lesson, but for me thats what these weapons are about.

On that note, I would say no to embellishment of course. My weapons tend to be rough, exactly as they were last found, in situ. It is to personal preference, but to do other than stabilize corrosion etc. is to contaminate the historic value of the weapon. Many collectors prefer aesthetics, and that is their call. To me its a wonderfully attractive tulwar as is

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
Here are photographs of three of my Tulwars which I think are relevant. Unfortunately they are in storage at the moment but the hilts and blades are in the same order in both photographs. Jens was kind enough to give me his opinion some time ago but only from these and other images. From the left Northern India 19thC the scabbard, not shown, being typical of Afghan typology, middle India late 18th early 19thC no scabbard, far right late 17th early 18thC scabbard, not shown, plain leather over wood probably replaced several times. As you can see the earlier the blade the more pronounced the yelman. I would doubt this is an indicator of age, although it appears to be the case regarding these three, maybe more of a hint.
Regards,
Norman.


P.S. You will notice the one on the left has an intact pin through the hilt whereas yours unfortunately has this piece missing.

[Jim McDougall]

Outstanding examples!!! and perfectly described!
The northern example on the left, as noted has the central pin in the crossguard as is typical of the tulwars of these regions (now Afghanistan). The flared quillon terminals are of course atypical of typical tulwars, and there is a marked resemblance toward the familiar paluoar.

What I have learned over the years is the heavier the blade, the earlier, and the yelman's primary objective was to add weight and heft to cutting power. Thus even with lighter blade overall, extra weight and surface added strength to the cut. While the yelman is of course derived from the Turkic influences that were key in Central Asian into Mughal spheres, it surely expanded in degree to other groups and areas. The middle and right examples are most certainly Rajasthani, and quite likely Rajput. The central one has the squared langet which Pant (1980) aligns with Udaipur.

Thank you for entering these Norman! Its exciting to see such examples shown together in comparison. Really miss having Jens around.