(really) old tulwar with yelman for ID

francantolin · 24th August 2025, 02:14 PM

Hello, Many thanks for your comments !

and especially Jim for this wonderful history lesson,
thank you so much !!!

Regarding the repairs Serdar, I was talking about those located on the quillons; there is brass poured into the cracks.

Regarding the mounting hole at the guard with the missing mounting bar, I'm thinking it would be nice to install a new one and maybe add a small silver or brass antique piece
for enlight the hilt , without change the nature of the saber, of course.
That would be cheating, so I'm hesitant; I'll have to find the most appropriate decoration possible...

Again a big thank you and kind regards

Jim McDougall · 24th August 2025, 03:56 PM

Its been a great history lesson for me as well, Actually when I write here, its after researching and compiling notes, so its learning for me as well, and Im just sharing what I just learned.

As I continued researching, I found that the article on Shazadas and Talpurs was actually toward two separate areas, and that shazada was a term, not a specific group, and used in Persian and Mughal parlance as more a title or reference for sons of rulers etc. This applied to the Mughal specific, in which the Empire by the 18th century was situated mostly in Delhi, and Agra.

What is important regarding the significant yelman which is featured on these blades is this was an affectation which derives traditionally from the Timurids, which of course were the nomadic Turkic tribes moving westward. These tribes carried further to establish the Ottoman Empire, where as we know, the yelman became more pronounced in the pala and kilic.

These tribes branched southward into India and the origins of the Mughal empire, so the yelman on blades was essentially a traditional element which seems to have been carried forward into the 18th century with these blades.
It does not seem the yelman feature prevailed largely into the 19th c.aside from incidental cases.
The Persian shamshir is of course a curved blade which radiuses directly to a sharp point, and there is no yelman whatsoever. This is notable as the Persian influence in Mughal courts was profound, just as in Afghanistan and Sind.
So the yelman was more a traditional carry over recognizing the Timurid ancestry of the Mughals.

The fact that Sind, and its ruling Talpur dynasty, were also with these influences from Persia (Shia Faith) and Mughals, and factoring in the influences from the Durrani (Afghan) Empire, were all elements that position sabers of this type there as well.

The bottom line I suppose is that these tulwars with distinct yelman blade seem to have been prevalent in the 18th century in the Delhi regions with the 'open' hilt such as yours. Those with knuckleguard such as my example may have also been in the same areas including Sind and much of the northwest frontiers. Hyderabad was a key trade entrepot in Sind, so as noted incoming blades from Europe from varied sources likely influenced blades made in neighboring blade production, hence the copied markings especially these Italian marks.

I know, more history lesson, but for me thats what these weapons are about.

On that note, I would say no to embellishment of course. My weapons tend to be rough, exactly as they were last found, in situ. It is to personal preference, but to do other than stabilize corrosion etc. is to contaminate the historic value of the weapon. Many collectors prefer aesthetics, and that is their call. To me its a wonderfully attractive tulwar as is

Norman McCormick · 25th August 2025, 05:12 PM

Hi,
Here are photographs of three of my Tulwars which I think are relevant. Unfortunately they are in storage at the moment but the hilts and blades are in the same order in both photographs. Jens was kind enough to give me his opinion some time ago but only from these and other images. From the left Northern India 19thC the scabbard, not shown, being typical of Afghan typology, middle India late 18th early 19thC no scabbard, far right late 17th early 18thC scabbard, not shown, plain leather over wood probably replaced several times. As you can see the earlier the blade the more pronounced the yelman. I would doubt this is an indicator of age, although it appears to be the case regarding these three, maybe more of a hint.
Regards,
Norman.

P.S. You will notice the one on the left has an intact pin through the hilt whereas yours unfortunately has this piece missing.

Jim McDougall · 25th August 2025, 06:25 PM

Outstanding examples!!! and perfectly described!
The northern example on the left, as noted has the central pin in the crossguard as is typical of the tulwars of these regions (now Afghanistan). The flared quillon terminals are of course atypical of typical tulwars, and there is a marked resemblance toward the familiar paluoar.

What I have learned over the years is the heavier the blade, the earlier, and the yelman's primary objective was to add weight and heft to cutting power. Thus even with lighter blade overall, extra weight and surface added strength to the cut. While the yelman is of course derived from the Turkic influences that were key in Central Asian into Mughal spheres, it surely expanded in degree to other groups and areas. The middle and right examples are most certainly Rajasthani, and quite likely Rajput. The central one has the squared langet which Pant (1980) aligns with Udaipur.

Thank you for entering these Norman! Its exciting to see such examples shown together in comparison. Really miss having Jens around.

25th August 2025, 05:12 PM	#3
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,645	Hi, Here are photographs of three of my Tulwars which I think are relevant. Unfortunately they are in storage at the moment but the hilts and blades are in the same order in both photographs. Jens was kind enough to give me his opinion some time ago but only from these and other images. From the left Northern India 19thC the scabbard, not shown, being typical of Afghan typology, middle India late 18th early 19thC no scabbard, far right late 17th early 18thC scabbard, not shown, plain leather over wood probably replaced several times. As you can see the earlier the blade the more pronounced the yelman. I would doubt this is an indicator of age, although it appears to be the case regarding these three, maybe more of a hint. Regards, Norman. P.S. You will notice the one on the left has an intact pin through the hilt whereas yours unfortunately has this piece missing. Attached Images

24th August 2025, 02:14 PM	#1
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 922	Hello, Many thanks for your comments ! and especially Jim for this wonderful history lesson, thank you so much !!! Regarding the repairs Serdar, I was talking about those located on the quillons; there is brass poured into the cracks. Regarding the mounting hole at the guard with the missing mounting bar, I'm thinking it would be nice to install a new one and maybe add a small silver or brass antique piece for enlight the hilt , without change the nature of the saber, of course. That would be cheating, so I'm hesitant; I'll have to find the most appropriate decoration possible... Again a big thank you and kind regards

24th August 2025, 03:56 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,627	Its been a great history lesson for me as well, Actually when I write here, its after researching and compiling notes, so its learning for me as well, and Im just sharing what I just learned. As I continued researching, I found that the article on Shazadas and Talpurs was actually toward two separate areas, and that shazada was a term, not a specific group, and used in Persian and Mughal parlance as more a title or reference for sons of rulers etc. This applied to the Mughal specific, in which the Empire by the 18th century was situated mostly in Delhi, and Agra. What is important regarding the significant yelman which is featured on these blades is this was an affectation which derives traditionally from the Timurids, which of course were the nomadic Turkic tribes moving westward. These tribes carried further to establish the Ottoman Empire, where as we know, the yelman became more pronounced in the pala and kilic. These tribes branched southward into India and the origins of the Mughal empire, so the yelman on blades was essentially a traditional element which seems to have been carried forward into the 18th century with these blades. It does not seem the yelman feature prevailed largely into the 19th c.aside from incidental cases. The Persian shamshir is of course a curved blade which radiuses directly to a sharp point, and there is no yelman whatsoever. This is notable as the Persian influence in Mughal courts was profound, just as in Afghanistan and Sind. So the yelman was more a traditional carry over recognizing the Timurid ancestry of the Mughals. The fact that Sind, and its ruling Talpur dynasty, were also with these influences from Persia (Shia Faith) and Mughals, and factoring in the influences from the Durrani (Afghan) Empire, were all elements that position sabers of this type there as well. The bottom line I suppose is that these tulwars with distinct yelman blade seem to have been prevalent in the 18th century in the Delhi regions with the 'open' hilt such as yours. Those with knuckleguard such as my example may have also been in the same areas including Sind and much of the northwest frontiers. Hyderabad was a key trade entrepot in Sind, so as noted incoming blades from Europe from varied sources likely influenced blades made in neighboring blade production, hence the copied markings especially these Italian marks. I know, more history lesson, but for me thats what these weapons are about. On that note, I would say no to embellishment of course. My weapons tend to be rough, exactly as they were last found, in situ. It is to personal preference, but to do other than stabilize corrosion etc. is to contaminate the historic value of the weapon. Many collectors prefer aesthetics, and that is their call. To me its a wonderfully attractive tulwar as is

25th August 2025, 06:25 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,627	Outstanding examples!!! and perfectly described! The northern example on the left, as noted has the central pin in the crossguard as is typical of the tulwars of these regions (now Afghanistan). The flared quillon terminals are of course atypical of typical tulwars, and there is a marked resemblance toward the familiar paluoar. What I have learned over the years is the heavier the blade, the earlier, and the yelman's primary objective was to add weight and heft to cutting power. Thus even with lighter blade overall, extra weight and surface added strength to the cut. While the yelman is of course derived from the Turkic influences that were key in Central Asian into Mughal spheres, it surely expanded in degree to other groups and areas. The middle and right examples are most certainly Rajasthani, and quite likely Rajput. The central one has the squared langet which Pant (1980) aligns with Udaipur. Thank you for entering these Norman! Its exciting to see such examples shown together in comparison. Really miss having Jens around.