Show us your khodmi/Bou Saadi knife

[Sajen]

These small Algerian knives have a great variation in handle style and material, material of the wire binding down from the handle and blade markings.
I own three of these knives, two with wooden handles and one with a bone handle, one has a pure brass wire winding, one with a combined iron/copper wire binding and the one with the bone handle has a pure iron binding.
They are between 26,7 and 24 cm long.
I hope to see your examples in this thread as well!

[TVV]

Nice khodmis Detlef. I only have a couple, the larger of which is 44.5 cm long.

[Sajen]

Thank you very much for showing your nice examples!

Your long one isn't a khodmi, it belongs to the long daggers from Bou Saada without the wire binding in down from the handle, see my examples from this type.

Regards,
Detlef

[Pertinax]

Hi Detlef!

I have already shown my copy, I will add it again.

And the cherry on the cake - Etienne Dinet "Hunter" 1902

Best regards,
Yuri

[TVV]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Thank you very much for showing your nice examples!

Your long one isn't a khodmi, it belongs to the long daggers from Bou Saada without the wire binding in down from the handle, see my examples from this type.

Regards,
Detlef

Detlef, you are right that there are two distinct types. Eric Claude in his book states that khodmi is simply a local word for knife and I am not sure whether we should use it to describe only one of the types from Bou Saada. In fact, Bou Saadi, as in simply meaning knives made in Bou Saada may be the more appropriate term.

When it comes to the two types, there are some similarities, as well as some obvious differences. The smaller type was meant to be tucked in a sash and the scabbard has a small leather loop. The other type has rings on both sides of the scabbard mouth and meant to be worn on a baldric. I am sure there were good reasons for that and maybe someone with local knowledge like fennec might be able to provide more info.

[TVV]

Originally Posted by Pertinax

Hi Detlef!

I have already shown my copy, I will add it again.

And the cherry on the cake - Etienne Dinet "Hunter" 1902

Best regards,
Yuri

This is a nice example which has some age. What I find interesting on yours is that the scales are riveted to the tang like on the longer type, and the wire binding therefore minimal and mostly decorative. I wonder if the wire binding became more extensive over time as a method of securing the grip as opposed to riveting it.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by TVV

This is a nice example which has some age. What I find interesting on yours is that the scales are riveted to the tang like on the longer type, and the wire binding therefore minimal and mostly decorative. I wonder if the wire binding became more extensive over time as a method of securing the grip as opposed to riveting it.

Could also be that some of the wire binding got lost at Yuri's nice example, see the shadow on the goat horn.

Regards,
Detlef

[Pertinax]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Could also be that some of the wire binding got lost at Yuri's nice example, see the shadow on the goat horn.

Regards,
Detlef

Detlef, you're right!

I've had this knife for quite a long time, and I didn't pay attention to these nuances. But now I looked closely, and there really are traces of wire on the handle.

Live and learn, but you will still die a fool (Russian humorous proverb).

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Pertinax

Detlef, you're right!

I've had this knife for quite a long time, and I didn't pay attention to these nuances. But now I looked closely, and there really are traces of wire on the handle.

Live and learn, but you will still die a fool (Russian humorous proverb).

Yuri, we all learn something new every day, would be sad when not! I handled a few where the wire binding got lost over time which looked similar to your example.

Best regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

These both will enter the small collection soon.

[TVV]

Detlef, you have done a much better job collecting these than me. Claude writes that the khodmi hilt is split to allow the tang to be inserted, and therefore the wiring is necessary to hold everything in place. On Yuri's example the hilt construction is in between the two types, with horn scales riveted together instead of a single piece of horn. Thus, less wire was needed at only a couple of spots, as opposed to half the hilt. On mine, the hilt is made of a single piece of horn and the wiring is so extensive that it even covers the hole for the lanyard in the middle of the grip.

[Sajen]

The one from my collection with the bone handle has a very similar construction as the one from Yuri where some of the wire binding got lost like Yuri confirmed. I am nearly sure that my one has two rivets under the wire binding also, I have seen some of these knives where the wire binding was opened or lost, all had the same construction like we see it in Yuri's example.
I hope Khaled (Fennec) sees this thread and will be able to tell us more. In my opinion the wire binding is only a reinforcing.

Regards,
Detlef

[kronckew]

My khodmi, Bou Saadi knives: The short one is most traditional, but with a woman's sewing thimble used as a chape. The long one has an all wood scabbard with carvings that look rather Ifflysan.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by kronckew

My khodmi, Bou Saadi knives: The short one is most traditional, but with a woman's sewing thimble used as a chape. The long one has an all wood scabbard with carvings that look rather Ifflysan.

Thank you Wayne for showing your examples! I told you some years ago already that I like your smaller example very much!

Regards,
Detlef

[fennec]

Originally Posted by Sajen

I hope Khaled (Fennec) sees this thread and will be able to tell us more. In my opinion the wire binding is only a reinforcing.
Detlef

Dear brother, Are you serious with that tread ??
How do you want me not to participate haha...but, LET ME FINISH MY BOOK (actually, more than 400pages, and still a lot of pictures needed... that project is such a bad idea.. I'll probably have to split it in two volumes, one for swords/weapons, the other one for tools, cause it would be impossible to edit that way... so I'm still struggling.. so for the moment, I'll keep sharing this here, even pictures from it... but if I continue to much, you will have nothing to learn in it..haha).

About the handle.. NO, that wire is clearly, originally, a way to avoid the blade from "rolling", because it has usually only one pin. For the oldest models, even the pin, isnt really one, but more like a metal sheet bend into an "S". You can note by this picture. Probably the second pin was added when the wire was damaged, or initally just by "security".
Why only one pin ? I think its because the lack of mmaterial.. most of those knives where made with ancient files (under colonisation era I mean, before probably local made steel). The thicker part of that piece (see those kind of triangle or round files, that goes thinner and thinner), is used to make the bolster, and the longer one is forged for the blade. It wont let you a lot of steel to make a tang... usually only a small "nail" that was insert in a wood handle for the file. Once flatten, and thicken, it is not very long. I only see that reason, and more generally the "economy" of steel.

I've talked about that in my book, and hopefully have this picture of a very old one (probably late 1, (battle one, not to cut vegies.. note the thickness of the spine). I've made lately another wire, but its very ugly and have to replace it one day...
You can not the black surface where was the initial wire, as for Yuri model.
I have some others in the exact same mount, just no picture here but I'll share soon !

[fennec]

ps. About the two pins, or one pin. I think that the original and ancient way, was probably with one pin, and wires. But its also as old as this one, that have only two pins, and even no wire (and I'm not talking about those long "saharian" models, as de marvelous one of Théodore (I'll probably ask you for pictures soon .. haha) or yours, but "real" small bousaadis (cf picture). A very close model as mine is displayed at Quai Branly museum (paris), and pretended to be owned it Oran, so very far from Bousaada. Just to remind that if we all call them "bousaadi", here, and in algeria, those knives where actually made in an area bigger that Austria (between Bousaada, Batna, Biskra, and even more in the south). So there is probably more than only one way, that had probably been lost during last centuries. Same for those tin soldering points on the wire, on some models. I think that this process is quite recent (probably colonisation era) to avoid the wire from mooving.
And even for bousaada models, you have some variations, some longs ones to slaughter, some smaller ones as EDC, some thinner ones for skinning or shaving, etc.. Those last ones, are between a rasor and a knife, and have sometimes a shape closer to kabyle rasors, but with horn handles.


Some pictures... Please dont share outside the forum for the moment..
First is my "bousaadi" without wire, quite old model. Those shapes are not very common.
Just after an exemple from the museum, you fan find it by tiping the inventory number in the collection website museum.
Then one of my "bousaada rasors".. actually between knives and rasors, used more for skinning animals, or shaving humans.
Remember that almost all bousaadi was used for that, especially head en beard shaving. Lot of them where find with a little miror attached to them.

[fennec]

Just some more pictures... some from my blades, some from ancient pictures, but please please please please dont share them for the moment.. those are all from my book, and still waiting for some right for the ancient photo (but however, those are my ancestors... haha)

(ps. for the rasor Ive post before, the horn had been covered with a metal sheet, but usually only horn.
Here another kind of "bousaada" rasors, and finally a very rare/unique one /never seen another/ with the typical bousaada work, but on a rasor (10cm something like that...). A very beautyfull piece with a horn handle. Quite old).

And some goodies..
"Shaving the head before the circomcision", 1935
"every man have a knife" 1935
"taking off splinters" 1935.

All of those are bousaadi knives, but from the area of Biskra.

[fennec]

some more classic ones from mine

[fennec]

Others are what I call "saharian mouss" (knife, just another word as khodmi, just to make difference in my book, nothing official), that are usually from a widest area in the desert, even used by some tourag or close to people (I mean some people from those area, tamaghasset, Djanet, Ouargla, Hoggar, but not necessary from touareg comunities, that usally have their own style telek/gozma knives).

Well, every time I tell myself "stop sharing what is supposed to be in your book", I remember that is still A LOT of secrets I've discovered (and still every day.. really) on those blades, as the meaning of some engravings, and for that mates, you will have to wait a little...haha

PS.. dear Detlef, could I ask you later for some pictures of yours for my book? I would be honored to display them in it !

Peace my friends, and thanks again for the help a lot of you gave me !!

[fennec]

ps.. ps...
I'm actually a blacksmith, that always forgot to share my work, never sell anything, and still wonder why I'm poor
So here is some of mines.. I mean, Ive forged (full ancient way, charcoil forge, no power tools.. but with some personnal add, like a differential quenching Ive took from my first love, the nihonto.. yeah, I actually begon with japanese swords, then turn myself into my ancestors work those last years).

first ones was my real first try to a bousaadi series (2/3 years ago). due to a very hard steel I've choose, to have a better "hamon" (quenching line), Ive dont make the "very thin" cold hammered cutting edged, that would be too muck brittle on those ones. Many personnal add, like rayskin for one, or eggshells for another.

[fennec]

And finally, those ones are more recent, as Ive begon to be more precise with inlay work, but also differential quench on many kind of steel (in water too haha, let forge in fire people cry about that ..hahaha). Know I try to stick more to the tradi work, but still with a bit of modern touch.

First one was for my sister, so a bit different. The second one, for an algerian friend, Ive tried to symbolize "algerian mountains" on the hamon.

The last one is the last one (some month ago) with all modesty, my best work in that kind. It was for a very known and respected collector and specialist, and member of the forum, that helped me a lot for my quest, and that I really consider as a friend now (thanks again to him, and even, his precious work).

[TVV]

fennec, we were all hoping you would comment to provide the kind of local perspective only you can. Thank you for your posts, I have learned a lot from this thread.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by fennec

Dear brother, Are you serious with that tread ??

Hi Mate! I came across the khodmi with the bone handle by the German ebay and after I received it and was very pleased with it after a little bit care and I thought that it's a good idea to start this thread and hoped you would join in!

Originally Posted by fennec

About the handle.. NO, that wire is clearly, originally, a way to avoid the blade from "rolling", because it has usually only one pin. For the oldest models, even the pin, isnt really one, but more like a metal sheet bend into an "S". You can note by this picture. Probably the second pin was added when the wire was damaged, or initally just by "security".
Why only one pin ? I think its because the lack of mmaterial.. most of those knives where made with ancient files (under colonisation era I mean, before probably local made steel). The thicker part of that piece (see those kind of triangle or round files, that goes thinner and thinner), is used to make the bolster, and the longer one is forged for the blade. It wont let you a lot of steel to make a tang... usually only a small "nail" that was insert in a wood handle for the file. Once flatten, and thicken, it is not very long. I only see that reason, and more generally the "economy" of steel.

I've talked about that in my book, and hopefully have this picture of a very old one (probably late 1, (battle one, not to cut vegies.. note the thickness of the spine). I've made lately another wire, but its very ugly and have to replace it one day...
You can not the black surface where was the initial wire, as for Yuri model.
I have some others in the exact same mount, just no picture here but I'll share soon !

You're correct, the knives with wooden handles seem to have only one rivet so far I can tell. I have seen over the years some khodmi where the wire binding got lost. But the ones with bone and horn handles often have two or three rivets like the one from Yuri or some of the very nice ones you have shown. There seems to be not a general norm when the handles are not from wood!?
Sadly I never saved pictures and never bought ones where the wire got lost so I only can tell from remembering and the shown here examples.

Best regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by fennec

PS.. dear Detlef, could I ask you later for some pictures of yours for my book? I would be honored to display them in it!

It would be a great honor for me if my pieces were featured in your book!

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by fennec

And finally, those ones are more recent, as Ive begon to be more precise with inlay work, but also differential quench on many kind of steel (in water too haha, let forge in fire people cry about that ..hahaha). Know I try to stick more to the tradi work, but still with a bit of modern touch.

First one was for my sister, so a bit different. The second one, for an algerian friend, Ive tried to symbolize "algerian mountains" on the hamon.

The last one is the last one (some month ago) with all modesty, my best work in that kind. It was for a very known and respected collector and specialist, and member of the forum, that helped me a lot for my quest, and that I really consider as a friend now (thanks again to him, and even, his precious work).

Beautiful work my friend!

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by TVV

fennec, we were all hoping you would comment to provide the kind of local perspective only you can. Thank you for your posts, I have learned a lot from this thread.

Agreed Theo! Still hope to see more examples of our members!

[Lee]

Lew Waldman had two of these, both apparently with a date:

http://vikingsword.com/lew/w0004/w0004.html

http://vikingsword.com/lew/w1119/w1119.html

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Sajen

These both will enter the small collection soon.

Have received the one in down, I think it's a fairly old example.