Another interesting Moro sword

zelbone · 25th July 2006, 05:34 PM

I would suggest looking more closely at the detailed carving before coming to any conclusions.

VANDOO · 25th July 2006, 07:51 PM

OH YEAH!!! NOW YOU HAVE GOT MY MOUTH WATERING

I DON'T SEE ANY BORNEO INFLUENCE IN THE CARVEING IT LOOKS PURE MORO TO ME. THE SHAPE OF THE CROCODILE HEAD HAS BEEN STYLIZED UNTIL IT IS NO LONGER IDENTIFIABLE AS SUCH. THE DESIGN IS ALL FLORAL NO LEACHES,DEVIL DOGS OR OTHER TYPICAL, TRADITIONAL BORNEO STYLE DESIGNS SO EVEN IF IT WAS FROM BORNEO I WOULD GUESS THE ONES WHO MADE IT WERE NOT FROM THERE ORIGINALLY. I WOULD GUESS EARLY 1800'S AS TO THE DATE BUT ITS ONLY A GUESS I AM SURE YOU WILL BE BETTER ABLE TO TELL HAVING IT IN HAND AND BEING MUCH MORE EXPERIENCED THAN I. PERHAPS SOMEONE WILL HAVE MORE EXPERIENCE AND CAN IDENTIFY IT BASED ON THE CARVEING OR THE FABRIC, I LEAN TOWARD A PHILIPPINE MORO ORIGIN. JUDGING FROM THE WORKMANSHIP AND CONDITION I WOULD AGREE IT BELONGED TO A HIGH RANKING INDIVIDUAL WHO WAS NOT LIKELY TO USE IT FOR FIGHTING. THE LARGE SIZE OF THE CARVED POMMEL LOOKS LIKE IT WOULD GET IN THE WAY WHEN USING SOME STRIKES, BUT AS I DON'T KNOW THE FIGHTING STYLE FOR THE KAMPILIAN PERHAPS NOT?

IF IT GETS TOO DANGEROUS OVER THERE YOU ARE ALWAYS WELCOME TO GRAB YOUR COLLECTIONS AND COME OVER TO MY PLACE AND HANG OUT UNTILL IT COOLS DOWN

YOU GUYS STAY SAFE AND I HOPE THIS CURRENT CONFLICT SOON ENDS

Rick · 25th July 2006, 08:24 PM

I find the diagonal lines that intersect the center disc on all but one of the illustrations quite interesting and a little puzzling; especially on the example Artzi has shown .

VVV · 25th July 2006, 09:46 PM

The reason no traditional Dayak design is seen on the Kampilans is that it never was a Dayak sword. The Illanun people were Moros from Mindanao who settled quite late in North Borneo. Already in the early 20th C they were mixed with, and became part of, the Bajau tribe. Like the Illanuns the Bajaus are Muslim and have Malay, not Dayak, origin.
So Kampilans were used by the Moros who was living in Borneo.

According to Ivor Evans' field studies (published 1922) almost all of the Moro weapons (Barong, Kris) were imported except maybe some of the Kampilans.

"Most of the villages have a blacksmith, who is capable of turning out very fair knives, spear-heads and other small articles, but the making of waved or straight kris and sundang blades is now a lost art, if indeed such articles were ever made in either district, of which I have no proof: in fact I am rather inclined to think that the two commonest forms of sword to be found in the hands of the Bajaus and Illanuns, the barong or pida, and the sundang, which is locally called kris, were mostly imported from Sulu. The long Illanun sword, the kompilan, may have been made locally to a small extent."

Michael

Here is another resembling Kampilan, collected in Sulawesi.

Ian · 25th July 2006, 10:26 PM

Michael:

I think the pictures you show above from the two references clearly illustrate the similarity in style between Artzi's example and the well provenanced published examples. These shorter hilted forms do seem to be attributable, at least in part, to the N. Borneo muslim group (albeit perhaps translocated from Mindanao). Since we are talking basically of transplanted Moro people, the style of carving may be quite similar to Mindanao, but the shorter hilt seems distinctive to N. Borneo.

Ian.

And then there is this one that Dan Wilke and I found in Manila. Where is this hilt from?

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...achmentid=1107

CharlesS · 25th July 2006, 10:55 PM

Very helpful pics Michael. They really go a long way towards making the N. Borneo point.

Thanks!

VVV · 25th July 2006, 11:27 PM

Thanks Charles and Ian,

Sorry if I overloaded this thread with reference pictures. I just felt that one example wasn't significant enough.

Actually I am not convinced yet myself that those hilts didn't once originate in Mindanao.
Several resembling Kampilans are found in Spanish museums, as well as in Leiden, that has been collected in Mindanao.

Regarding the Spanish museums that's my assumption that they were collected in Mindanao because the rest of the weapons exhibited are from the Philippines and the Spanish never colonised North Borneo.
In Leiden the catalogues have been published so it's easy to trace where the the different Kampilans were collected.

Michael

25th July 2006, 09:46 PM	#4
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	The reason no traditional Dayak design is seen on the Kampilans is that it never was a Dayak sword. The Illanun people were Moros from Mindanao who settled quite late in North Borneo. Already in the early 20th C they were mixed with, and became part of, the Bajau tribe. Like the Illanuns the Bajaus are Muslim and have Malay, not Dayak, origin. So Kampilans were used by the Moros who was living in Borneo. According to Ivor Evans' field studies (published 1922) almost all of the Moro weapons (Barong, Kris) were imported except maybe some of the Kampilans. "Most of the villages have a blacksmith, who is capable of turning out very fair knives, spear-heads and other small articles, but the making of waved or straight kris and sundang blades is now a lost art, if indeed such articles were ever made in either district, of which I have no proof: in fact I am rather inclined to think that the two commonest forms of sword to be found in the hands of the Bajaus and Illanuns, the barong or pida, and the sundang, which is locally called kris, were mostly imported from Sulu. The long Illanun sword, the kompilan, may have been made locally to a small extent." Michael Here is another resembling Kampilan, collected in Sulawesi. Attached Images

25th July 2006, 10:26 PM	#5
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,361	Michael: I think the pictures you show above from the two references clearly illustrate the similarity in style between Artzi's example and the well provenanced published examples. These shorter hilted forms do seem to be attributable, at least in part, to the N. Borneo muslim group (albeit perhaps translocated from Mindanao). Since we are talking basically of transplanted Moro people, the style of carving may be quite similar to Mindanao, but the shorter hilt seems distinctive to N. Borneo. Ian. And then there is this one that Dan Wilke and I found in Manila. Where is this hilt from? http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...achmentid=1107 Last edited by Ian; 25th July 2006 at 10:37 PM.

25th July 2006, 05:34 PM	#1
zelbone Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: VISAYAS and MINDANAO Posts: 169	I would suggest looking more closely at the detailed carving before coming to any conclusions.

25th July 2006, 07:51 PM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	OH YEAH!!! NOW YOU HAVE GOT MY MOUTH WATERING I DON'T SEE ANY BORNEO INFLUENCE IN THE CARVEING IT LOOKS PURE MORO TO ME. THE SHAPE OF THE CROCODILE HEAD HAS BEEN STYLIZED UNTIL IT IS NO LONGER IDENTIFIABLE AS SUCH. THE DESIGN IS ALL FLORAL NO LEACHES,DEVIL DOGS OR OTHER TYPICAL, TRADITIONAL BORNEO STYLE DESIGNS SO EVEN IF IT WAS FROM BORNEO I WOULD GUESS THE ONES WHO MADE IT WERE NOT FROM THERE ORIGINALLY. I WOULD GUESS EARLY 1800'S AS TO THE DATE BUT ITS ONLY A GUESS I AM SURE YOU WILL BE BETTER ABLE TO TELL HAVING IT IN HAND AND BEING MUCH MORE EXPERIENCED THAN I. PERHAPS SOMEONE WILL HAVE MORE EXPERIENCE AND CAN IDENTIFY IT BASED ON THE CARVEING OR THE FABRIC, I LEAN TOWARD A PHILIPPINE MORO ORIGIN. JUDGING FROM THE WORKMANSHIP AND CONDITION I WOULD AGREE IT BELONGED TO A HIGH RANKING INDIVIDUAL WHO WAS NOT LIKELY TO USE IT FOR FIGHTING. THE LARGE SIZE OF THE CARVED POMMEL LOOKS LIKE IT WOULD GET IN THE WAY WHEN USING SOME STRIKES, BUT AS I DON'T KNOW THE FIGHTING STYLE FOR THE KAMPILIAN PERHAPS NOT? IF IT GETS TOO DANGEROUS OVER THERE YOU ARE ALWAYS WELCOME TO GRAB YOUR COLLECTIONS AND COME OVER TO MY PLACE AND HANG OUT UNTILL IT COOLS DOWN YOU GUYS STAY SAFE AND I HOPE THIS CURRENT CONFLICT SOON ENDS

25th July 2006, 08:24 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	I find the diagonal lines that intersect the center disc on all but one of the illustrations quite interesting and a little puzzling; especially on the example Artzi has shown .

25th July 2006, 10:55 PM	#6
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	Very helpful pics Michael. They really go a long way towards making the N. Borneo point. Thanks!

25th July 2006, 11:27 PM	#7
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Thanks Charles and Ian, Sorry if I overloaded this thread with reference pictures. I just felt that one example wasn't significant enough. Actually I am not convinced yet myself that those hilts didn't once originate in Mindanao. Several resembling Kampilans are found in Spanish museums, as well as in Leiden, that has been collected in Mindanao. Regarding the Spanish museums that's my assumption that they were collected in Mindanao because the rest of the weapons exhibited are from the Philippines and the Spanish never colonised North Borneo. In Leiden the catalogues have been published so it's easy to trace where the the different Kampilans were collected. Michael