Here is my other hunting sword

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

This is a very important thread re. talismanic numbers. It appears no-one has fully plumbed these depths. Jim, you were the first person I encountered who suggested talismanic sigils and numerology etc. I know a lot about the so called esoteric so it has never surprised me that, when going into a life and death situation, every little helps. I hope there is more to come Chaps, keep up the good work.

Thank you Keith! Indeed, I have ventured into this rabbit hole countless times over decades, and there are few who have queried these matters soundly. Many cursory entries in various works simply shrug off the meanings under the vague 'cabalistic' term, while there are as many cases of tailoring the numbers to important dates or Biblical passages.

There are these references, which I had translations etc years ago but have yet to find them in my maelstrom of decades of notes!!! madness!

"Die Klingenmarke 1414(1441) und Related Numerical Signs"
Walter Rose, ZHWK, Vol.14, #3

"Waffen mit Astral Ogischen und Kabbalistchen Zeichen"
"Count Karl Rambaldi ,
Zeitschrifte fur Historichen Waffen und Kostumkunde (ZHWK)
Vol. 9 p.128-38 (1921-22)

These references cited..... in "Cut and Thrust Weapons" (Eduard Wagner, Prague 1967)

On p.76 Wagner notes the first blades with running wolf (he adds fox=fuchs) popular in England for King James I and courtiers were by Klemens Horn (1580-1630) of Solingen. Not sure how accurate this is as obviously the mark was known in Passau long before, and used spuriously by Solingen.

Wagner goes on to suggest 'magic numbers' associated with certain makers, which seems tenuous at best, but I add it here for reference.
1479...Johannes Wundes
1495...Johannes Kueller
1506...both Meves Berns and Johann Hartkop
1515....Mathias Wundes
1436....Peter Munich

In Hounslow Johann Kindt 1630-40 used running wolf and 1636, which of course may indeed be a date.

Meanwhile most running wolf marks with 'magic numbers' seem to be most ubiquitously 1414, which seem most often suggested as from the Biblical passage from old Testament Job 14:14, "if a man dies, should he live again".
A sound consideration for a blade carried into battle, but as far as its intent...apocryphal at best.
Its palindrome, 1441, also occurs frequently, but only adds to the endless speculation.

Once these numbers became popularized, whatever their original intent might have been, they undoubtedly became moot as far as meaning and became a suggested imbuement of quality, magic or any number of perceptions to potential users of the blade.

The awareness of these numbers being used in this manner may be seen as early as 1836,
"..a sword of the time of William III with Passau wolf blade marked 1414, a manufactory number often mistaken for a date".
"The Gentlemans Magazine" (1836)
I do not have the cite for this, but may be from the Catalog of Doucean Museum, apparently passim.

From p.324 "History of the Huguenot Immigration to America"
Charles W. Baird (1885)
"...the sword of Gabriel Bernin which is in the possession of his ancestor Charles Bernon Allen of Providence, R.I. ....
it bears the figures 1.4.1.4
it is noticeable that the date synchronizes with that of the wars of Burgundy from whom Bernons claim descent. In 1414 John the Intrepid came to Burgundy with 20,000 horse.

There are the Masonic versions, 1441 has to do with the year of appointment of William St. Clair etc.

One version claims 1441 the year of Lutheran martyrdom, but as Martin Luther was not born until after that time, this falls flat. It does however reveal the lengths to which people will go to tailor these numbers to suit their agenda.

The unavoidable fact is that these are typically number combinations used in various applications based on lucky or talismanic numbers in magic or occult esoterica. The cabalistic notions come from the fact that gemetria or the use of alphabet letters with numeric values was part of the coded system.
This carried to the use of acrostics or combining the first letter of each word in a phrase, motto or invocation. In Italy, this practice was well known with letters with letter combinations which when trying to be read conventionally were jibberish, but as acrostics, and the reference phrase known, it was clear what it meant to the initiated.

Well ,for those of you intrepid readers still awake, that is the short version of what arcane notes I have gathered over years on this topic.
There is SO much more to learn!

[urbanspaceman]

My Hounslow Hangar has - along with a Passau Wolf latten - a date which actually corresponds to a local event in history:


This was the date of the crowning of the sixteen year old Lady Jane Grey, who reigned for 9 days before being subsequently executed.
Because it said ANNO 1553 I was convinced it was a date, but it was a century before Hounslow were making these swords. Did someone date their blade to declare loyalty even after 100 years?
Fascinating stuff to grapple with.

[Jim McDougall]

It truly is fascinating to look into these conundrums! and I recall us discussing this amazing Hounslow example. The entire Hounslow enterprise, much like the later Shotley Bridge venture, was wrought with deception, intrigue and odd notions. It has always been unclear just how many actual blades were made in the shops at Hounslow, and how many blades from Solingen were actually brought in and finished there.

It seems there was always still a desire for the venerable old blades from the 'old' country in some degree despite the obvious freshly 'minted' products of the Hounslow smiths, who variously signed their blades, sometimes with dates. This was the exception to the familiar 'magic' dates often seen on blades with the running wolf. Could this have been a Hounslow embellished blade intended to be taken as an old Solingen blade ? or a slightly later sword of 'Hounslow school' which were still mounted with these distinctive hilts and a venerable 'old' Solingen blade?

I have an idea that perhaps, after the conventions associated with these magic numbers became largely caught onto, possibly there was deliberate attempt to defray the actual character of the inscription. Obviously the term 'ANNO' suggests 'in the year of' and typically referred to the year of production, or a 'commemorated' event. Either of these would suggest the deliberate distraction to the use of 'magic' numbers in times of notable paranoia toward such 'unholy' practices.
As noted, the date associated with Lady Jane Grey and her 9 day reign in that year(1553) would be hard to assess, as by the same token, she was dethroned for the Catholic Queen Mary, again same year.
So how could one determine which faction to which loyalty would be given?

Naturally all speculation, and admittedly tenuous, but these are the areas in the study of arms history typically avoided. Without any evidence to empirically reach conclusions, there is little to no interest in speculations or theories subjective in nature among most students of arms.

[Triarii]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

It truly is fascinating to look into these conundrums! and I recall us discussing this amazing Hounslow example. The entire Hounslow enterprise, much like the later Shotley Bridge venture, was wrought with deception, intrigue and odd notions. It has always been unclear just how many actual blades were made in the shops at Hounslow, and how many blades from Solingen were actually brought in and finished there.

It seems there was always still a desire for the venerable old blades from the 'old' country in some degree despite the obvious freshly 'minted' products of the Hounslow smiths, who variously signed their blades, sometimes with dates. This was the exception to the familiar 'magic' dates often seen on blades with the running wolf. Could this have been a Hounslow embellished blade intended to be taken as an old Solingen blade ? or a slightly later sword of 'Hounslow school' which were still mounted with these distinctive hilts and a venerable 'old' Solingen blade?

I have an idea that perhaps, after the conventions associated with these magic numbers became largely caught onto, possibly there was deliberate attempt to defray the actual character of the inscription. Obviously the term 'ANNO' suggests 'in the year of' and typically referred to the year of production, or a 'commemorated' event. Either of these would suggest the deliberate distraction to the use of 'magic' numbers in times of notable paranoia toward such 'unholy' practices.
As noted, the date associated with Lady Jane Grey and her 9 day reign in that year(1553) would be hard to assess, as by the same token, she was dethroned for the Catholic Queen Mary, again same year.
So how could one determine which faction to which loyalty would be given?

Naturally all speculation, and admittedly tenuous, but these are the areas in the study of arms history typically avoided. Without any evidence to empirically reach conclusions, there is little to no interest in speculations or theories subjective in nature among most students of arms.

I'm wondering if the numbers are simply the smiths of any region adding a bit of 'magic' to what was the 'mysteries' (as the London Cutlers Guild certainly called it) of blademaking. Make it a bit trickier for a non guild member to determine the secrets of quality blades by throwing them off of the scent.

[Jim McDougall]

It truly is fascinating to look into these conundrums! and I recall us discussing this amazing Hounslow example. The entire Hounslow enterprise, much like the later Shotley Bridge venture, was wrought with deception, intrigue and odd notions. It has always been unclear just how many actual blades were made in the shops at Hounslow, and how many blades from Solingen were actually brought in and finished there.

It seems there was always still a desire for the venerable old blades from the 'old' country in some degree despite the obvious freshly 'minted' products of the Hounslow smiths, who variously signed their blades, sometimes with dates. This was the exception to the familiar 'magic' dates often seen on blades with the running wolf.

I have an idea that perhaps, after the conventions associated with these magic numbers became largely caught onto, possibly there was deliberate attempt to defray the actual character of the inscription. Obviously the term 'ANNO' suggests 'in the year of' and typically referred to the year of production, or a 'commemorated' event. Either of these would suggest the deliberate distraction to the use of 'magic' numbers in times of notable paranoia toward such 'unholy' practices.
As noted, the date associated with Lady Jane Grey and her 9 day reign in that year(1553) would be hard to assess, as by the same token, she was dethroned for the Catholic Queen Mary, again same year.
So how could one determine which faction to which loyalty would be given?

Naturally all speculation, and admittedly tenuous, but these are the areas in the study of arms history fiercely avoided by most academics. Without any evidence to empirically reach conclusions, there is little to no interest in speculations or unfounded theories.

[Triarii]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

My Hounslow Hangar has - along with a Passau Wolf latten - a date which actually corresponds to a local event in history:
Attachment 246535
Attachment 246536
This was the date of the crowning of the sixteen year old Lady Jane Grey, who reigned for 9 days before being subsequently executed.
Because it said ANNO 1553 I was convinced it was a date, but it was a century before Hounslow were making these swords. Did someone date their blade to declare loyalty even after 100 years?
Fascinating stuff to grapple with.

Hi Urban. Any chance of a photo of the guard decoration please? I don't think I've seen one like that on a 'Hounslow' hanger before.

[urbanspaceman]

Originally Posted by Triarii

Hi Urban. Any chance of a photo of the guard decoration please? I don't think I've seen one like that on a 'Hounslow' hanger before.

It's Keith - by all means.



it is still a very sharp blade.

[urbanspaceman]

I always suspected - given the lack of a button - that the grip has a rebind; probably a working-life job and very well done.
Stuart Mowbray, Brit. Mil. Swords page 165 shows an identical hilt in the London Museum signed FECIT HOUNSLOE on one side and RECARDUS HOPKINS on the other. The blade differs however as does the grip which is spiral bound fish-skin. He does not identify Hopkins.
Another, page 164, with a "silver dot and trellis" hilt but otherwise identical is signed ANDRIA FERARA and has a stag grip.

[urbanspaceman]

Stuart wonders why there are so few "Made In Hounslow" blades on Hounslow hangars... Solingen blades seeming to predominate.
One of his examples is lavishly scripted "IN SOLINGEN ANNO 1644". Another with a 'cross and orb' features the palindrome 1551 and TOMIS AIALA. Yet another has ANNO 1414. Go figure!
Many of these swords are in York Castle Museum.

[Triarii]

double post

[Triarii]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

It's Keith - by all means.
Attachment 246547
Attachment 246548
Attachment 246549
it is still a very sharp blade.

Thanks Keith. Much appreciated. I have two, one with the usual form of shell guard and the other identical to the one in Stuart Mowbrays work. Which means I missed the one that's similar to yours.

[Jim McDougall]

It seems there was a confluence of actual Solingen blades which came into the shops in the Hounslow enterprise, and while certainly some of the German makers there do appear to have made blades, there is good potential for numbers of swords hilted there with imported blades.

The marking of blades with the makers own name was contrary to the conventions of English makers, and possibly there might have been some resistance to doing so by the German and English both in some cases.
The seemingly small number of blades marked with Hounslow or the makers known in such blades are not representative of the numbers of swords of the styles associated with Hounslow.

By the later years of the Hounslow shops c. 1640s, the familiar style of the hilts of these hangers (riding swords) had gained renown, and became somewhat known as of the 'Hounslow school'. As such the hilt style continued in degree for some time after the shops in Hounslow had ceased, likely in about 1670s, though unclear it appears they were mostly gone.

Keith, this amazing example of yours with the curiously unique date which appears outside the normally seen sequences of numbers associated with magic etc,......might be related to the following.
'
In Wallace Collection (Mann, 1962, p.365) there is a 'falchion' which I have seen in various references and known as the PRINS ANGLIE sword. Mann describes it as English c. 1600-20, with the blade being 'either English or German'. The inscription on the blade;
EDWARDVS . PRINS. ANGLIE
In the catalog, A717 (the falchion) the famed collector/writer the Baron de Cosson, wrote in "Society of Antiquaries" proceedings, 2nd series, XVIII, 21 Jun 1900, p,206:
"...early in the 17th c. there was a strong antiquarian movement in England which found expression in books on heraldry containing much fictitious lore, "

further, noting the PRINS ANGLIE swords, he notes a number of swords with this inscription (described in 1786) and a running wolf (717) noting the wolf does not preclude its being marked by a smith in England rather than in Solingen. A mark of a bell accompanies the wolf on the blade.
this mark was known to John Phillipes of the armorers company in London in 1578.

Mann notes further;
"...the existence of several 17th century swords mounted in English hilts and bearing a like inscription ".
Similar blades bear the names;
ROBERTUS BRUSCHIUS SCOTORUM REX 1310 (Robert the Bruce of Scotland (1274-1329)
MARCHIO RODERICIS BIVAR (Rodrigo de Bivar, THE CID) marchio=brand, mark
HUGH LUPUS. King of the Goths (1047-1101) Norman England known as 'the wolf'.

Perhaps, your 'Hounslow' might fall into this category,which seems to have been the climate of historical and heraldic lore of the times ?
What is confounding is the word ANNO with the numbers 1553.........which would defeat the 'magic numbers' category summarily. Again, this would move toward something commemorative as you have neatly described.

It is noted that English blades copying German were certainly in place in Hounslow, and possibly even earlier (Greenwich?). Look at the blade point with clipped tip on example A717, and the curious neoclassic helmeted head pommel.

My Hounslow has a distinct German running wolf, and in latten (brass) as with German convention, but in the serrated back blade common to Hounslow. dating 1630s-40? No name, noting many of these makers there did not add their names.

The last pic of a Hounslow 'lionhead' which I think dates c1650s and represents what I take as 'Hounslow school' (Nuemann, 1973).