Question regarding ore used

[urbanspaceman]

Split from thread Peter Munston and Family

[Jim McDougall]

It seems that it is typically noted that the sites for renowned blade making centers were chosen for the access of iron ore. This is mentioned I know for Sheffield, I think it was noted for Hounslow but cannot place the cite.

With Solingen it was always profoundly noted that the iron ore in nearby areas was the key to that location.However in a note in a reference I have since feverishly tried to relocate, it claims that during the Thirty Years War, much of the disruption of production was caused by loss of access to Swedish steel imports. This caused the guilds to enforce limitations on the numbers of weapons allotted to each smith or shop.
These restrictions then may have been the reasons for the smiths to relocate to other locations.

I wonder if Swedish steel was indeed imported into England in the same manner? I know we have discussed this before years ago, but perhaps a talking point here? It seems rich deposits in the north led to Sheffield, which curiously never largely entered into sword blades, just knives.

[urbanspaceman]

Hi Jim. Somewhere in my hundreds of files of research is a detailed account of all the various impurities in the various iron ores according to region. I will track it down as this sort of detail is meat and drink to me.
However: getting down to the nitty-gritty, the biggest issue is the importation of Swedish "Bar" iron, or "Oregrund" ore, from the Dannemora mines.
The principle additional ingredient in this ore (now please, if anyone knows better, then I would greatly appreciate disabusing as I am no expert) is Manganese. Unsurprisingly it is also found in the ores of the Wupper Valley.
NB: it is possible that the huge influx of Huguenots into Solingen – during the 30 years war - put an additional strain on the output of the local mines and Remscheid iron production facilities, so they may well have been restricted to using Swedish imports. Beyond the Huguenots, of course, the demand for weapons from the Holy Roman Empire during that war will have been monumental. Sweden will have been the first port of call for supplies. Solingen had total religious tolerance despite being a Catholic city.
We have/had iron ore deposits nearby Shotley Bridge, but they are too high in impurities and it was not a practical proposition to remove them on anything but a limited output basis. There are better ores not too far away (the Romans found them) but they were either undiscovered or too distant to transport.
Once serious production was started in the Derwent Valley, then Swedish Bar iron was shipped in to the Tyne as that was relatively easy. Unfortunately, until the harbour facilities at Hull were developed, Sheffield/Scunthorpe had no access to Swedish imports, hence the poor quality blades from John Scunthorpe that were returned with the description "…they stand like lead…".
The Bertram presence in Shotley Bridge, with his multi generational Swedish family and his earlier working tenure in Wira Bruk, did not go unnoticed by either Kalmeter and/or Angerstein who were warmly welcomed during their industrial espionage adventures. Also, Bertram's influence on Ambrose Crowley's "biggest industrial complex in the world" a few miles down-valley also resulted in monumental demand for Swedish ore.
Curiously, the finest 'steel' being produced alongside Germany's was called Newcastle steel, made using the 'German' method, and came from Bertram first. Angerstein was very interested to understand how he was able to outclass Swedish steel and Bertram was happy to explain as by then Crowley's industrial espionage by stealing Bertram's apprentices meant it was no longer a secret in the valley.
"Mr Bertram acknowledged quite openly what he, through much trouble and effort, had learnt, namely that a good Oregrund iron properly converted to steel by cementation can never be further perfected by repeated processes of cementation and shearing. It is likely to lose in quality by such treatment and finally disintegrate like a slag without substance or life." RR Angerstein

[urbanspaceman]

Perhaps these last two posts could become a new thread.

[Triarii]

Originally Posted by Triarii

Urban Spaceman - I know Stone was involved in getting the Hounslow works up and running at scale, though it was Heyden who got the German smiths over from Rotterdam. Was the Hounslow site purely chosen because of the existing mills and the convenience of Northumberland's 'Cutt river'?

Jim - good point on names. When Charles' army stopped at Turnham Green to face Essex's army and the London Trained Bands, those outside London referred to it as 'London', though it was 6 or 7 miles outside. Brentford, oddly, was identified as such when there was a small battle there.

Thanks. I may have been too far up my ladder of inference in assuming Stone wanted to be away from the LCG, but the water and mills were the primary needs. I've read about suspected smuggling into Hounslow to keep production up, but that was based on the Solingen running wolf being applied and as you say, Solingen trained smiths could legitimately apply that mark.

[Triarii]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Hi Jim. Somewhere in my hundreds of files of research is a detailed account of all the various impurities in the various iron ores according to region. I will track it down as this sort of detail is meat and drink to me.
However: getting down to the nitty-gritty, the biggest issue is the importation of Swedish "Bar" iron, or "Oregrund" ore, from the Dannemora mines.
The principle additional ingredient in this ore (now please, if anyone knows better, then I would greatly appreciate disabusing as I am no expert) is Manganese. Unsurprisingly it is also found in the ores of the Wupper Valley.
NB: it is possible that the huge influx of Huguenots into Solingen – during the 30 years war - put an additional strain on the output of the local mines and Remscheid iron production facilities, so they may well have been restricted to using Swedish imports. Beyond the Huguenots, of course, the demand for weapons from the Holy Roman Empire during that war will have been monumental. Sweden will have been the first port of call for supplies. Solingen had total religious tolerance despite being a Catholic city.
We have/had iron ore deposits nearby Shotley Bridge, but they are too high in impurities and it was not a practical proposition to remove them on anything but a limited output basis. There are better ores not too far away (the Romans found them) but they were either undiscovered or too distant to transport.
Once serious production was started in the Derwent Valley, then Swedish Bar iron was shipped in to the Tyne as that was relatively easy. Unfortunately, until the harbour facilities at Hull were developed, Sheffield/Scunthorpe had no access to Swedish imports, hence the poor quality blades from John Scunthorpe that were returned with the description "…they stand like lead…".
The Bertram presence in Shotley Bridge, with his multi generational Swedish family and his earlier working tenure in Wira Bruk, did not go unnoticed by either Kalmeter and/or Angerstein who were warmly welcomed during their industrial espionage adventures. Also, Bertram's influence on Ambrose Crowley's "biggest industrial complex in the world" a few miles down-valley also resulted in monumental demand for Swedish ore.
Curiously, the finest 'steel' being produced alongside Germany's was called Newcastle steel, made using the 'German' method, and came from Bertram first. Angerstein was very interested to understand how he was able to outclass Swedish steel and Bertram was happy to explain as by then Crowley's industrial espionage by stealing Bertram's apprentices meant it was no longer a secret in the valley.
"Mr Bertram acknowledged quite openly what he, through much trouble and effort, had learnt, namely that a good Oregrund iron properly converted to steel by cementation can never be further perfected by repeated processes of cementation and shearing. It is likely to lose in quality by such treatment and finally disintegrate like a slag without substance or life." RR Angerstein

That's really interesting. I ws looking into Solingens religious affiliations, who controlled it and its likely customer base during the TYW to see if it gave any clues as to the owner of the blade of a Pappenheimer I have. Definitely Solingen, with various generic Latin phrases and what may be a saint or bishop on it.

[urbanspaceman]

This thread got me thinking... then researching, because I had never considered where Hounslow got its iron ore from; or London - for that matter. I suppose if pushed I would have said - without reference - from Sweden.
However, there were vast amounts of ironstone in the clay beds of The Weald.
Where the (****) is the Weald?
It is an area centered around Tunbridge Wells stretching across the counties south of London.
And, there were huge numbers of trees in the Hampshire forest for coke.
Blast furnaces and finery forges were in existence by the 1490s and by the time of Henry VIII the area was a center of armaments manufacture: cannons. So it can be relatively accurately presupposed that it was supplying Greenwich, then Hounslow, and then Oxford.
But by the time of the Restoration, Swedish bar iron was being used.
Sweden may well have supplied Greenwich before that - it was certainly very accessible. Does anybody know? If so, then the Restoration date may be erroneous.
Does anybody know?

[Jim McDougall]

This question really is perplexing Keith. While often the production of weapons is inferred to a certain location, it seems typically assumed it was either for the accessibility to local resources for said production.
However that does not seem always the case, in fact quite contrary often.

The thing is that extracting and processing material is complicated, consuming and difficult...so much in the manner of 'why trade blades were used rather than locally produced'...expedience.....became the attraction to Swedish steel.

Its like wootz, the choice crucible steel for blades throughout the Middle East, it was produced in India (and Ceylon) and the ingots traded prolifically to be used in forging blades. It was not until the British Raj that deforestation led to the demise of its production, and the loss of generational makers that production of fine blades nominally ended.

I wish I could find that reference noting the disruption of Swedish steel into Solingen during Thirty Years War caused decline in production and the diaspora in degree of many of the makers. It is in some degree like the demise of Toledo, whose decline began with the move of the royal court to Madrid, then other economic factors brought demise of the industry in 17th c

It seems like somewhere I read that Cologne was always recognized in earlier years as the place of origin of German swords as this was the center for the cutlers to mount the blades from Solingen. ..thus they were called Koln (Cologne) swords. However in another reference it was noted it was because Cologne was the Diocese center for the region.
This suggests religious geo-classification elements also being at hand.

Clearly there are many elements in understanding the development of swords and their production far beyond identifying the finished products...which makes these aspects of their history so intriguing.

[Hotspur]

I am forgetting where I was reading on Euro steel and there is a bit about Swedish trade with England (14th century?) and that some of it was slag from Swedish smelting. Then de-carbing in making shear/blister. Buying the cast iron/slag dross for cheap. .Paraphrasing there, it has been decades.

It was probably in reading and searching here or a random Swedish steel article attached to Euro steel. There is a lot of port entry data and stuff like trade 'tariff' on Flemish steel items and a push for steel qualities (<15th century?)
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/

The Smiths like this book;
"The Knight and the Blast Furnace: A History of the Metallurgy of Armour in the Middle Ages & the Early Modern Period" by Alan Williams

A very good history of German steel can be read in;
"The Arms of Krupp 1587-1968: The Rise and Fall of the Industrial Dynasty That Armed Germany at War" by William Manchester


Great stuff I have not revisited in a long time.

[urbanspaceman]

Quote
A very good history of German steel can be read in;
"The Arms of Krupp 1587-1968: The Rise and Fall of the Industrial Dynasty That Armed Germany at War" by William Manchester

Thanks 'Harry'. I will acquire a copy.

[urbanspaceman]

Hey Jim, I do know that they have ascertained that the iron and blade industry in the Wupper Valley dates back 2,000 years.
The relevant area for metal working was Remscheid, which latterly tended towards Protestantism, in particular Lennep.
I also understood that Koln was the trading center in the North West as opposed to Passau in the South West and Augsburg in the South East. I may be wrong.
It is also said that it was the traders in Koln who were adding the spurious names such as Toledo and Andrea Ferrara, which has always seemed far more credible compared to the Solingen smiths doing it.
That casts an altogether different light on the issue, does it not?

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Hey Jim, I do know that they have ascertained that the iron and blade industry in the Wupper Valley dates back 2,000 years.
The relevant area for metal working was Remscheid, which latterly tended towards Protestantism, in particular Lennep.
I also understood that Koln was the trading center in the North West as opposed to Passau in the South West and Augsburg in the South East. I may be wrong.
It is also said that it was the traders in Koln who were adding the spurious names such as Toledo and Andrea Ferrara, which has always seemed far more credible compared to the Solingen smiths doing it.
That casts an altogether different light on the issue, does it not?

It sure does! But seems like the Solingen boys carried forth the convention.
The trade centers seem geographically right.

[urbanspaceman]

I'm not sure Jim, maybe I'm rose tinting, but my instinct tells me that it was Koln traders alone.
I've read - somewhere in the past - that those markets employed smiths to stamp the blades according to the customer's needs.
Considering the variations in the styles of all those spurious punzones, that, to me, seems highly likely.
I just feel that the Solingen guild workers were above that sort of knavery. Just a feeling. Dealers! You know, they are a different breed!
Also, as far as I am aware, no-one could deal directly with Solingen other than authorised agents.

[Jim McDougall]

Good perspectives Keith, and viably suggested. I dont think we (arms writers and collectors) have ever really fully understood the dynamics of sword production (case in point Hounslow and Shotley).

Most of what has been written seems to have been assumed, and the swords themselves identified as such and such, and often by the blade, which bears marks or stamps of so and so. Then we rush to the compendiums of known markings and compare them finding that so and so worked 'here' in given years so now we 'know' (?) how old the blade is.
Hmmm.

This might work.....by the 'book'.....but now we realize there are far more nuances, facts, and practices that existed in the times we are presuming to understand.

Yes....dealers.......we think that spurious markings, knockoffs etc are modern conventions.......clearly not the case.
I recall asking a guy (dealer) once about a sword.....he wryly asked 'what do you WANT it to be?' In a rare interaction of truth.
While perhaps opening a 'pandoras box', for us who are intent on finding the truth in historical matters, sometimes the unsavory aspects that have been covered in hyperbole, lore and contrived accounts must be endured while being fact checked.

The workers who produced blades were just that, shops producing piece work...not the passionately produced blacksmith work implied and illustrated in movies in lore, where they held up and admired each blade while being forged.

Indeed, the blades were sent from there to the artisans who would mark the blades, often artificers who knew which examples to use to entice the specialized clientele. It would make sense that these individuals (also shops) would be in the trade centers (such as Koln) and that the blades as marked then would be off to cutlers, and mounted in scabbards either by them or other craftsmen.

While perhaps sounding cynical, it is simply working toward an awareness of the dynamics of the actual production of the swords we study in our pursuit of better understanding the history of the weapons themselves. In this case, where, and how they were produced BEFORE they became elements of the historic events in which they were involved.

[Triarii]

On Koln, I've read that the 'Sachgum / Sachgvm' often found on so-called Walloon swords - quite often found alongside a 'Solingen' wolf, was a sign of blades made specifically for the Dutch to export. Supposedly the hilts were added in Koln, wherever the blades were from, but a number of examples have Amsterdam control marks (3 X's under a crown) which is partially obscured by the hilt. It wouldn't make much sense to dismantle a sword to add this, so I assume that either the mark was added by some form of Dutch QA guy in Koln, or that the hilts were added in Amsterdam, after the blade was stamped. Maybe Koln just happened to be where the blades were traded through... perhaps...

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Triarii

On Koln, I've read that the 'Sachgum / Sachgvm' often found on so-called Walloon swords - quite often found alongside a 'Solingen' wolf, was a sign of blades made specifically for the Dutch to export. Supposedly the hilts were added in Koln, wherever the blades were from, but a number of examples have Amsterdam control marks (3 X's under a crown) which is partially obscured by the hilt. It wouldn't make much sense to dismantle a sword to add this, so I assume that either the mark was added by some form of Dutch QA guy in Koln, or that the hilts were added in Amsterdam, after the blade was stamped. Maybe Koln just happened to be where the blades were traded through... perhaps...

Well noted! and thats a great insight, any chance you might recall the source? Sahagum was of course one of the Toledo greats, so in the convention of German smiths spuriously using those names and marks it fits.
This falls in with the well known VOC swords of the Dutch East India Co.
It has been suggested that these blades were produced either in Solingen, or more likely in shops with probably Solingen smiths in Netherlands. I have yet to find more definitive on that but it seems reasonable.

The blades coming out of Solingen were exported through Amsterdam or more commonly Rotterdam in the 17th c. so again these connections seem logical.

[urbanspaceman]

I spent quite a bit of time trying to ascertain exactly what was present in Amsterdam and Rotterdam. No defections to Holland were recorded by the Solingen guilds and I couldn't find any examples of smithies there either. I suspect blades went directly from Solingen to Rotterdam where they were hilted/or not, then sent either North to Scandinavia and the Baltics, or West to the UK.
I'm sure all the Andrea Ferrara blades in Scotland came that route.
Holland will have had smiths of some sort of course, just not the fine experts from Solingen.

[Jim McDougall]

C. 1629, Sir John Heyden, on diplomatic mission to Holland (probably Rotterdam) on behalf of Charles I, encountered some German swordsmiths who were said to have been escaping the terrors of the Thirty Years war. Heyden knowing the affinity for German blades convinced some of them to immigrate to England to work under royal patronage.
These were the beginnings of the Hounslow enterprise.

These refugees from Solingen included not only swordsmiths but forgers, grinders, polishers and hardeners. As refugees it is not likely there were records of their absence, and if I understand many of these workers were not included in the guild groups overall, it was primarily the smiths.

From Solingen, which is in the Ruhr valley on the Wupper river ..this is a tributary of the larger Rhine which runs through Germany and the Netherlands to Rotterdam, Hollands largest seaport.

From here the Solingen blades were exported to various trade ports including England. These were referred to colloquially as Dutch blades, not because of the phonetic similarity to Duetsch (=German) but because they came out of Rotterdam.

It seems likely there were groups of expatriate Solingen smiths and workers who must have set up shop in Holland. In earlier discussions there was if I recall, several centers where the Dutch East India (VOC) swords of the 18th c were produced or at least assembled. These seem to have had consistant patterns of marking, the VOC symbol or balemark, with the letter of the chamber (there were 6) of the VOC the blades were sent to. There appear to have been year dates added as well, through the 18th c. but most ending c. 1780s.

Not sure how all this applies to Shotley, but we do know the blades being smuggled in by Mohll were from the port of Rotterdam.

[Hotspur]

Yes, London port records are rife with manifests containing barrels of blades. Later as well, as noted by Mowbray and British ships going to Philadelphia with trunks and barrels listed as containing canes and umbrellas.

[urbanspaceman]

Umbrellas ! ? The British Brolly. What happened to the war of independence? Hey hey! You Guys thought you had won it; until it started to rain.