Wooden hilt cup and composite wood hilt

adamb · Yesterday, 02:57 AM

Hello everyone.

A Bugis/Bugis-Makasar keris, collected somewhere in Indonesia in 1920; from an old Swiss collection.

The hilt cup is carved from wood - has anyone seen that before in an antique Bugis keris?

The hilt, I hope it is clear from the photo, also seems to be comprised of at least two different types of wood that were glued together prior to shaping - has anyone seen that before?

Any insight appreciated.

cheers

A. G. Maisey · Yesterday, 05:23 AM

Adam, I doubt that the hilt cup is original.

I cannot see a glue joint, where is it?

adamb · Today, 12:51 AM

Thanks Alan; yes, if the hilt cup is a recent job I will consider replacing it with an original, but I'm keen to know if anyone has ever come across a wooden hilt cup that can be reasonably regarded as antique/authentic.

Hopefully the joints in the hilt are clearer in these shots Alan.

A. G. Maisey · Today, 01:50 AM

Thanks Adam.

Yes, I can see all the little patches, I can also see a spot of some sort of filling agent. That fill is most likely to be a fill where somebody has drilled the tang hole too deep & the drill bit has gone through the wood, sometimes when this happens the drill bit takes a lot more of the wood than just the little penetration hole.

What normally happens with any sort of damage to a hilt is that in-culture, the hilt will be replaced.

The keris is an item of dress, and nobody wants to be seen with his sarung or shirt patched, nor his keris dress patched, repairs to keris dress, especially large repairs & where a repair will be seen, are an earmark of somebody on hard times. Nobody wants that. So it is replace, not repair.

adamb · Today, 02:28 AM

Thanks Alan, I'm not sure it's a repair job since there is a separate area of the same lighter coloured wood on the hilt well below the part that would be damaged if they drilled the hole for the pesi too deep; this other piece of lighter coloured wood is oriented in the same direction as the first, which seems intentional. This should be visible in the very last photo I posted in my last post.

It looks to me more like someone glued some different pieces of wood together and then carved the handle from that composite block of wood - suggesting the banding is a deliberate design feature.

Regarding the hilt cup, now that I look at it, the hilt cup seems to be carved from the same lighter coloured wood that has been incorporated into the hilt, suggesting it is original rather than a recent/non-cultural replacement.

A. G. Maisey · Today, 05:03 AM

Adam, I did not suggest that this was a repair of damage caused by the over drilling of a tang hole, I am merely relating what I have seen in the past.

Something I have never seen is a hilt that has been made by gluing pieces of wood together & then carving those pieces of wood. Moreover, parts of the hilt appear to be genuinely old, other parts of it do not.

What I believe I can see is that we have a hilt with some sections of very high contrast material, the lines of demarcation between these contrasting zones are very crisp & well defined, however, in some places it does appear that the grain of the wood continues across the lines of demarcation.

There is something else that is also apparent, sections of the wood have quite high chatoyance.

Further, the crest of the hilt appears to have been replaced, and although this would be the most simple of repairs, it has been very clumsily done, so perhaps we are looking at a couple of different people working on this hilt.

The wooden fitting between the hilt & blade does not bear any resemblance at all to the usual metal fitting, additionally, the hilt sits on top of this wooden fitting not within it.

Something about the sarung also seems a little strange to me, & that is that the metal collar that covers the joint between the top part of the sarung & the bottom part of the sarung is of a style that I have never seen, either in the hand, or in a photo.

Now, let me put this upfront:- my knowledge of Bugis & Peninsula keris is only slight, but I have handled quite a lot of this style of keris over the years, going back into the 1950's there were many more of this type of keris available for purchase in Australia than there were Javanese & Balinese keris.

The various variations in the norm that I believe I can see in this keris all have the appearance work done by a collector from a society other than the originating society.

This opinion could well be incorrect, and if it can be demonstrated that it is incorrect then I will willingly withdraw it.

If I had this hilt myself, I would carry out a detailed examination under magnification & I would not neglect an internal examination of the tang hole.

Yesterday, 02:57 AM	#1
adamb Member Join Date: Oct 2024 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 23	Wooden hilt cup and composite wood hilt Hello everyone. A Bugis/Bugis-Makasar keris, collected somewhere in Indonesia in 1920; from an old Swiss collection. The hilt cup is carved from wood - has anyone seen that before in an antique Bugis keris? The hilt, I hope it is clear from the photo, also seems to be comprised of at least two different types of wood that were glued together prior to shaping - has anyone seen that before? Any insight appreciated. cheers Attached Images

Today, 12:51 AM	#3
adamb Member Join Date: Oct 2024 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 23	Thanks Alan; yes, if the hilt cup is a recent job I will consider replacing it with an original, but I'm keen to know if anyone has ever come across a wooden hilt cup that can be reasonably regarded as antique/authentic. Hopefully the joints in the hilt are clearer in these shots Alan. Attached Images

Yesterday, 05:23 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,032	Adam, I doubt that the hilt cup is original. I cannot see a glue joint, where is it?

Today, 01:50 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,032	Thanks Adam. Yes, I can see all the little patches, I can also see a spot of some sort of filling agent. That fill is most likely to be a fill where somebody has drilled the tang hole too deep & the drill bit has gone through the wood, sometimes when this happens the drill bit takes a lot more of the wood than just the little penetration hole. What normally happens with any sort of damage to a hilt is that in-culture, the hilt will be replaced. The keris is an item of dress, and nobody wants to be seen with his sarung or shirt patched, nor his keris dress patched, repairs to keris dress, especially large repairs & where a repair will be seen, are an earmark of somebody on hard times. Nobody wants that. So it is replace, not repair.

Today, 02:28 AM	#5
adamb Member Join Date: Oct 2024 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 23	Thanks Alan, I'm not sure it's a repair job since there is a separate area of the same lighter coloured wood on the hilt well below the part that would be damaged if they drilled the hole for the pesi too deep; this other piece of lighter coloured wood is oriented in the same direction as the first, which seems intentional. This should be visible in the very last photo I posted in my last post. It looks to me more like someone glued some different pieces of wood together and then carved the handle from that composite block of wood - suggesting the banding is a deliberate design feature. Regarding the hilt cup, now that I look at it, the hilt cup seems to be carved from the same lighter coloured wood that has been incorporated into the hilt, suggesting it is original rather than a recent/non-cultural replacement.

Today, 05:03 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,032	Adam, I did not suggest that this was a repair of damage caused by the over drilling of a tang hole, I am merely relating what I have seen in the past. Something I have never seen is a hilt that has been made by gluing pieces of wood together & then carving those pieces of wood. Moreover, parts of the hilt appear to be genuinely old, other parts of it do not. What I believe I can see is that we have a hilt with some sections of very high contrast material, the lines of demarcation between these contrasting zones are very crisp & well defined, however, in some places it does appear that the grain of the wood continues across the lines of demarcation. There is something else that is also apparent, sections of the wood have quite high chatoyance. Further, the crest of the hilt appears to have been replaced, and although this would be the most simple of repairs, it has been very clumsily done, so perhaps we are looking at a couple of different people working on this hilt. The wooden fitting between the hilt & blade does not bear any resemblance at all to the usual metal fitting, additionally, the hilt sits on top of this wooden fitting not within it. Something about the sarung also seems a little strange to me, & that is that the metal collar that covers the joint between the top part of the sarung & the bottom part of the sarung is of a style that I have never seen, either in the hand, or in a photo. Now, let me put this upfront:- my knowledge of Bugis & Peninsula keris is only slight, but I have handled quite a lot of this style of keris over the years, going back into the 1950's there were many more of this type of keris available for purchase in Australia than there were Javanese & Balinese keris. The various variations in the norm that I believe I can see in this keris all have the appearance work done by a collector from a society other than the originating society. This opinion could well be incorrect, and if it can be demonstrated that it is incorrect then I will willingly withdraw it. If I had this hilt myself, I would carry out a detailed examination under magnification & I would not neglect an internal examination of the tang hole.