Question regarding ore used

Jim McDougall · 8th July 2025, 02:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Hey Jim, I do know that they have ascertained that the iron and blade industry in the Wupper Valley dates back 2,000 years.
The relevant area for metal working was Remscheid, which latterly tended towards Protestantism, in particular Lennep.
I also understood that Koln was the trading center in the North West as opposed to Passau in the South West and Augsburg in the South East. I may be wrong.
It is also said that it was the traders in Koln who were adding the spurious names such as Toledo and Andrea Ferrara, which has always seemed far more credible compared to the Solingen smiths doing it.
That casts an altogether different light on the issue, does it not?

It sure does! But seems like the Solingen boys carried forth the convention.
The trade centers seem geographically right.

urbanspaceman · 8th July 2025, 10:27 AM

I'm not sure Jim, maybe I'm rose tinting, but my instinct tells me that it was Koln traders alone.
I've read - somewhere in the past - that those markets employed smiths to stamp the blades according to the customer's needs.
Considering the variations in the styles of all those spurious punzones, that, to me, seems highly likely.
I just feel that the Solingen guild workers were above that sort of knavery. Just a feeling. Dealers

! You know, they are a different breed!
Also, as far as I am aware, no-one could deal directly with Solingen other than authorised agents.

Jim McDougall · 8th July 2025, 03:07 PM

Good perspectives Keith, and viably suggested. I dont think we (arms writers and collectors) have ever really fully understood the dynamics of sword production (case in point Hounslow and Shotley).

Most of what has been written seems to have been assumed, and the swords themselves identified as such and such, and often by the blade, which bears marks or stamps of so and so. Then we rush to the compendiums of known markings and compare them finding that so and so worked 'here' in given years so now we 'know' (?) how old the blade is.
Hmmm.

This might work.....by the 'book'.....but now we realize there are far more nuances, facts, and practices that existed in the times we are presuming to understand.

Yes....dealers.......we think that spurious markings, knockoffs etc are modern conventions.......clearly not the case.
I recall asking a guy (dealer) once about a sword.....he wryly asked 'what do you WANT it to be?' In a rare interaction of truth.
While perhaps opening a 'pandoras box', for us who are intent on finding the truth in historical matters, sometimes the unsavory aspects that have been covered in hyperbole, lore and contrived accounts must be endured while being fact checked.

The workers who produced blades were just that, shops producing piece work...not the passionately produced blacksmith work implied and illustrated in movies in lore, where they held up and admired each blade while being forged.

Indeed, the blades were sent from there to the artisans who would mark the blades, often artificers who knew which examples to use to entice the specialized clientele. It would make sense that these individuals (also shops) would be in the trade centers (such as Koln) and that the blades as marked then would be off to cutlers, and mounted in scabbards either by them or other craftsmen.

While perhaps sounding cynical, it is simply working toward an awareness of the dynamics of the actual production of the swords we study in our pursuit of better understanding the history of the weapons themselves. In this case, where, and how they were produced BEFORE they became elements of the historic events in which they were involved.

Triarii · 9th July 2025, 02:15 PM

On Koln, I've read that the 'Sachgum / Sachgvm' often found on so-called Walloon swords - quite often found alongside a 'Solingen' wolf, was a sign of blades made specifically for the Dutch to export. Supposedly the hilts were added in Koln, wherever the blades were from, but a number of examples have Amsterdam control marks (3 X's under a crown) which is partially obscured by the hilt. It wouldn't make much sense to dismantle a sword to add this, so I assume that either the mark was added by some form of Dutch QA guy in Koln, or that the hilts were added in Amsterdam, after the blade was stamped. Maybe Koln just happened to be where the blades were traded through... perhaps...

Jim McDougall · 9th July 2025, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triarii

On Koln, I've read that the 'Sachgum / Sachgvm' often found on so-called Walloon swords - quite often found alongside a 'Solingen' wolf, was a sign of blades made specifically for the Dutch to export. Supposedly the hilts were added in Koln, wherever the blades were from, but a number of examples have Amsterdam control marks (3 X's under a crown) which is partially obscured by the hilt. It wouldn't make much sense to dismantle a sword to add this, so I assume that either the mark was added by some form of Dutch QA guy in Koln, or that the hilts were added in Amsterdam, after the blade was stamped. Maybe Koln just happened to be where the blades were traded through... perhaps...

Well noted! and thats a great insight, any chance you might recall the source? Sahagum was of course one of the Toledo greats, so in the convention of German smiths spuriously using those names and marks it fits.
This falls in with the well known VOC swords of the Dutch East India Co.
It has been suggested that these blades were produced either in Solingen, or more likely in shops with probably Solingen smiths in Netherlands. I have yet to find more definitive on that but it seems reasonable.

The blades coming out of Solingen were exported through Amsterdam or more commonly Rotterdam in the 17th c. so again these connections seem logical.

urbanspaceman · 9th July 2025, 08:32 PM

I spent quite a bit of time trying to ascertain exactly what was present in Amsterdam and Rotterdam. No defections to Holland were recorded by the Solingen guilds and I couldn't find any examples of smithies there either. I suspect blades went directly from Solingen to Rotterdam where they were hilted/or not, then sent either North to Scandinavia and the Baltics, or West to the UK.
I'm sure all the Andrea Ferrara blades in Scotland came that route.
Holland will have had smiths of some sort of course, just not the fine experts from Solingen.

Jim McDougall · 10th July 2025, 03:44 AM

C. 1629, Sir John Heyden, on diplomatic mission to Holland (probably Rotterdam) on behalf of Charles I, encountered some German swordsmiths who were said to have been escaping the terrors of the Thirty Years war. Heyden knowing the affinity for German blades convinced some of them to immigrate to England to work under royal patronage.
These were the beginnings of the Hounslow enterprise.

These refugees from Solingen included not only swordsmiths but forgers, grinders, polishers and hardeners. As refugees it is not likely there were records of their absence, and if I understand many of these workers were not included in the guild groups overall, it was primarily the smiths.

From Solingen, which is in the Ruhr valley on the Wupper river ..this is a tributary of the larger Rhine which runs through Germany and the Netherlands to Rotterdam, Hollands largest seaport.

From here the Solingen blades were exported to various trade ports including England. These were referred to colloquially as Dutch blades, not because of the phonetic similarity to Duetsch (=German) but because they came out of Rotterdam.

It seems likely there were groups of expatriate Solingen smiths and workers who must have set up shop in Holland. In earlier discussions there was if I recall, several centers where the Dutch East India (VOC) swords of the 18th c were produced or at least assembled. These seem to have had consistant patterns of marking, the VOC symbol or balemark, with the letter of the chamber (there were 6) of the VOC the blades were sent to. There appear to have been year dates added as well, through the 18th c. but most ending c. 1780s.

Not sure how all this applies to Shotley, but we do know the blades being smuggled in by Mohll were from the port of Rotterdam.

8th July 2025, 10:27 AM	#2
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 715	doubtful knavery I'm not sure Jim, maybe I'm rose tinting, but my instinct tells me that it was Koln traders alone. I've read - somewhere in the past - that those markets employed smiths to stamp the blades according to the customer's needs. Considering the variations in the styles of all those spurious punzones, that, to me, seems highly likely. I just feel that the Solingen guild workers were above that sort of knavery. Just a feeling. Dealers! You know, they are a different breed! Also, as far as I am aware, no-one could deal directly with Solingen other than authorised agents. Last edited by urbanspaceman; 8th July 2025 at 10:34 AM. Reason: second thoughts

9th July 2025, 08:32 PM	#6
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 715	Holland I spent quite a bit of time trying to ascertain exactly what was present in Amsterdam and Rotterdam. No defections to Holland were recorded by the Solingen guilds and I couldn't find any examples of smithies there either. I suspect blades went directly from Solingen to Rotterdam where they were hilted/or not, then sent either North to Scandinavia and the Baltics, or West to the UK. I'm sure all the Andrea Ferrara blades in Scotland came that route. Holland will have had smiths of some sort of course, just not the fine experts from Solingen.

8th July 2025, 03:07 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,542	Good perspectives Keith, and viably suggested. I dont think we (arms writers and collectors) have ever really fully understood the dynamics of sword production (case in point Hounslow and Shotley). Most of what has been written seems to have been assumed, and the swords themselves identified as such and such, and often by the blade, which bears marks or stamps of so and so. Then we rush to the compendiums of known markings and compare them finding that so and so worked 'here' in given years so now we 'know' (?) how old the blade is. Hmmm. This might work.....by the 'book'.....but now we realize there are far more nuances, facts, and practices that existed in the times we are presuming to understand. Yes....dealers.......we think that spurious markings, knockoffs etc are modern conventions.......clearly not the case. I recall asking a guy (dealer) once about a sword.....he wryly asked 'what do you WANT it to be?' In a rare interaction of truth. While perhaps opening a 'pandoras box', for us who are intent on finding the truth in historical matters, sometimes the unsavory aspects that have been covered in hyperbole, lore and contrived accounts must be endured while being fact checked. The workers who produced blades were just that, shops producing piece work...not the passionately produced blacksmith work implied and illustrated in movies in lore, where they held up and admired each blade while being forged. Indeed, the blades were sent from there to the artisans who would mark the blades, often artificers who knew which examples to use to entice the specialized clientele. It would make sense that these individuals (also shops) would be in the trade centers (such as Koln) and that the blades as marked then would be off to cutlers, and mounted in scabbards either by them or other craftsmen. While perhaps sounding cynical, it is simply working toward an awareness of the dynamics of the actual production of the swords we study in our pursuit of better understanding the history of the weapons themselves. In this case, where, and how they were produced BEFORE they became elements of the historic events in which they were involved.

9th July 2025, 02:15 PM	#4
Triarii Member Join Date: Oct 2021 Location: Bristol Posts: 143	On Koln, I've read that the 'Sachgum / Sachgvm' often found on so-called Walloon swords - quite often found alongside a 'Solingen' wolf, was a sign of blades made specifically for the Dutch to export. Supposedly the hilts were added in Koln, wherever the blades were from, but a number of examples have Amsterdam control marks (3 X's under a crown) which is partially obscured by the hilt. It wouldn't make much sense to dismantle a sword to add this, so I assume that either the mark was added by some form of Dutch QA guy in Koln, or that the hilts were added in Amsterdam, after the blade was stamped. Maybe Koln just happened to be where the blades were traded through... perhaps...

10th July 2025, 03:44 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,542	C. 1629, Sir John Heyden, on diplomatic mission to Holland (probably Rotterdam) on behalf of Charles I, encountered some German swordsmiths who were said to have been escaping the terrors of the Thirty Years war. Heyden knowing the affinity for German blades convinced some of them to immigrate to England to work under royal patronage. These were the beginnings of the Hounslow enterprise. These refugees from Solingen included not only swordsmiths but forgers, grinders, polishers and hardeners. As refugees it is not likely there were records of their absence, and if I understand many of these workers were not included in the guild groups overall, it was primarily the smiths. From Solingen, which is in the Ruhr valley on the Wupper river ..this is a tributary of the larger Rhine which runs through Germany and the Netherlands to Rotterdam, Hollands largest seaport. From here the Solingen blades were exported to various trade ports including England. These were referred to colloquially as Dutch blades, not because of the phonetic similarity to Duetsch (=German) but because they came out of Rotterdam. It seems likely there were groups of expatriate Solingen smiths and workers who must have set up shop in Holland. In earlier discussions there was if I recall, several centers where the Dutch East India (VOC) swords of the 18th c were produced or at least assembled. These seem to have had consistant patterns of marking, the VOC symbol or balemark, with the letter of the chamber (there were 6) of the VOC the blades were sent to. There appear to have been year dates added as well, through the 18th c. but most ending c. 1780s. Not sure how all this applies to Shotley, but we do know the blades being smuggled in by Mohll were from the port of Rotterdam.