Yataghan and markings - ID and comments, please - Page 2

Jim McDougall · 9th October 2021, 05:28 PM

Excellent synopsis GP, while the Pandours were indeed a specific group of diverse ethnicities formed into auxiliary forces for the armies of Maria Theresa in the wars of Spanish Succession in mid 18th c.

They were comprised in many cases of border guards in Croatian regions as well as security forces. Other Balkan groups as well as Hungarians also were included.
Baron Franz von Trenck, as you note formed these forces, who were assigned to carry out skirmishing as well as acquiring supplies. This unfortunately became ruthless pillaging and atrocious activity which led eventually to the disbandment of these forces and imprisonment of von Trenck.

These forces had worn exotic oriental style clothing, and all manner of styles of hair, drooping mustaches, shaved heads with scalp locks etc. and brandished 'exotic' weaponry including the yataghan, and other Eastern sabers.
Their terrifying look and demeanor remained profoundly in the minds of Europeans for decades, and their 'exploits' and threat became hubris which was placed on blades of weapons for decades, VIVAT PANDUR.

Von Trenck's own yataghan style sword was sold at auction some years back, and had come from the Charles Buttin collection.

A note on Robert Elgood's book on Balkan weapons. I recall when he was writing this, most of his emphasis was on the firearms, thus I suspect the yataghan coverage was less than as thorough as his usual work. The study of the yataghan itself is very complex because of its diversity and diffusion through thev expanse of the Ottoman Empire, so relying on a single resource without heavy cross referencing as you suggest , is essential.

Interested Party · 9th October 2021, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gp

Elgood, no disrespect intended, is for me not leading on Yataghans as i am reading now Durdica Petrovic's book "Balkan waepons (VII-XIX) , one of 4 she wrote, which Elgood used to write for his piece on yataghans.

GP, reading Elgood's bibliography it seems I am not lucky enough for there to be an English translation of these books. Am I correct? Am I looking for "The Armorers' craft in Metohija"? I couldn't find a reference to the book you mentioned in the "Arms of Greece". Even an edition in a romance language preferably Spanish would be a big help.

gp · 9th October 2021, 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Interested Party

GP, reading Elgood's bibliography it seems I am not lucky enough for there to be an English translation of these books. Am I correct? Am I looking for "The Armorers' craft in Metohija"? I couldn't find a reference to the book you mentioned in the "Arms of Greece". Even an edition in a romance language preferably Spanish would be a big help.

correct , there are unfortunately in the Balkans hardly to few translations of these books. One can be lucky to find them in latin and not cyrilic writing...which makes it a little eassier. Most data is indeed translated by the likes of Elgood or Austrian and German sources who did have always intersting publications on the Balkans. There are some English ones but hardly on cold weapons. I use the original Serbian, Croatian, Montenegrin Yugoslav books and translate it myself. Fortunately some Bulgarian, Rumanian and Turkish ones are also partially in English. You can find them in some of my posts on Bosnian arms, yataghans and bichaqs.
Also sadly publications in or from Balkan got often ignored due to unknown reasons to me.

Some literature:

Niels A. Andersen, On some Political Gold Yatagans from Algiers and Tunis, Vaabenhistoriske Aarbøger XIII, København 1966, page 159/226.
Esin Atil, The Age of Sultan Suleyman the Magnificent, Washington 1987, page 147, 152/153,
Maurice Bottet, La Manufacture d'Armes de Versailles, Boutet Directeur Artiste, Paris 1903,
Richard F. Burton, The Book of the Sword, London 1884, page 133/134. Anton Dolleczek, Monographie der k. u. k. österr.-ung. Blanken und Handfeuer-Waffen, Wien 1896/Graz 1970, page 32/33.
Jacob, Armes blanches page 114/123.
Dietrich Menz, Handschar/Yatagan, Deutsches Waffenjournal, Schwäbisch Hall 1967, Nr. 4 page 270/272.
Anthony North, Islamic Arms, London 1985, page 24/26
Marija Sercer, Jatagani u Povijesnom Muzeju Hrvatske, Zagreb 1975
Turgay Tezcan, Silahar, Topkapi Sarayi Müzesi, Istanbul 1983, page 32/33, 35.
Yatagane aus dem Historischen Museum von Kroatien in Zagreb, Katalog
Graz 1976
Vejsil Curcic , Starinsko Oruzje, Sarajevo 1926
Đurđica Petrović;
- Balkansko oružje (XII-XIX v.) : izabrane studije ( Balkan weapons XII-XIX)
- Dubrovačko oružje u XIV veku ( weapons of Dubrovnik XIV century)
Mirsad Sijarcic, Hladno oružje iz Bosne i Hercegovine u arheologiji razvijenog i kasnog srednjeg vijeka (Cold-steel weapons from Bosnia and Herzegovina in the archaeology of the high and late mediaeval period) 2014
Milan Praunsperger. Oružje starih hrvata ( weapons of the old Croats), 1943
Balkans Arms , knives and daggers 18th-19th century by Tarik Kožo - , in 3 languages (!); Bosnian, German and English, 2010 Sarajevo
and also the publications in French, German and Austrian papers or books between 1850-1918 I mentioned in my post about Balkan and Bosnian cold weapons, like yataghans, bicaqs, kama's and cakija's like
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ook#post264299

gp · 10th October 2021, 12:30 AM

a nice book to read, not on cold weapons but real literature is by Milos Crnjanski (writer and poet, a Habsburg soldier WWI on the front in Galicia, later diplomat of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia in Berlin ), German title "Panduren", English "Migrations", Serbian "Seobe"

Jim McDougall · 10th October 2021, 08:25 PM

GP, thank you SO very much for these amazing titles and being so helpful with this important literature!
As you note, there is scant information on these Balkan weapons in the west, and many titles in these languages are not only hard to find, but to translate.

gp · 5th April 2022, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

GP, thank you SO very much for these amazing titles and being so helpful with this important literature!
As you note, there is scant information on these Balkan weapons in the west, and many titles in these languages are not only hard to find, but to translate.

well "uncle"Jim and Interested Party ...as I was most happy to oblige, a "few" more titles of books and articles on this topic

gp · 5th April 2022, 11:00 AM

and the last couple....
happy reading !☼☼☼

Interested Party · 9th October 2022, 06:22 PM

GP I was rereading this bibliography and saw that I had neglected to thank you for sharing this wealth of information. It is much appreciated. I have goose egged on my title searches so for but now that I know what I am look for I will get lucky eventually. Thanks again.

gp · 9th October 2022, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Interested Party

GP I was rereading this bibliography and saw that I had neglected to thank you for sharing this wealth of information. It is much appreciated. I have goose egged on my title searches so for but now that I know what I am look for I will get lucky eventually. Thanks again.

happy to oblige and have been of some assistance ! You're welcome

Pertinax · 1st April 2024, 09:03 PM

I will add books on the topic yataghan

Э. Г. Аствацатурян Турецкое оружие в собрании Государственного Исторического музея

G. E. Vvedensky YANISSARI, History symbols weapons

Denis Cherevichnik To the Question of the Origin of Yatagan

gp · 1st April 2024, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pertinax

I will add books on the topic yataghan

Э. Г. Аствацатурян Турецкое оружие в собрании Государственного Исторического музея

G. E. Vvedensky YANISSARI, History symbols weapons

Denis Cherevichnik To the Question of the Origin of Yatagan

Thnx a lot / bolshoj spassiba !

any advise where I can get Vvedensky's book ? searched worldwide in vain.....

Additional found on Cherevichnik Denis (2018). Ottoman yataghan: etymology and origin of the term. In: Collection of the scientific works of the International scientific and Practical conference “The world of weapons: stories, heroes, collections”. Tula State Museum of Weapons, October 3-5, 2018.

Pertinax · 1st April 2024, 10:18 PM

[QUOTE=gp;289982]Thnx a lot / bolshoj spassiba !

any advise where I can get Vvedensky's book ? searched worldwide in vain.....

Look at here

https://bookmarks.com.ua/en/products...-vvedenskij-ge

https://piterbooks.ru/read.php?sname...nissari&page=1

gp · 1st April 2025, 07:47 PM

next to these 2 pieces of literature

https://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showp...6&postcount=36
https://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showp...7&postcount=37

I found additional very interesting literature in 2 PDF pages:

fennec · 7th July 2025, 02:31 AM

THIS IS ALGERIAN

yeah, its me again, juste to add some "salt" to the discussion, as we say in french... naah, I mean, I'm not categoric, and I dont want to be that pathetic algerian guy who cry at any post about his elder craft, BUT..
This curious sword "could be" a north african composition, under ottoman era. Let me give some points :

- Italian/Austrian european blade, as massivly used in algeria or tunisia for many nimcha, or "tunisian berber swords". Same era, same engravings, same roads of importations, or battle took.

- A kind of "north african" work we can see on some nimcha, simple but effective just to use the blade, a shaped wooden handle, very common in "barbary era", due to a big need of weapons. the same blade in europe, should probably have a more "well made" handle, in my tought (thant local craftsman of Maghreb).

- That handle shape, that is not without reminding me a lot with the "typical" shape of algerian yatagans hadles, offering the same kind of "finger emplacement", and also a bit the pommel. The decoration in it made with circles, is also well used in algeria and tunisia.

- The brass guard... I mean.. as a specialist of algerian weapons, this is probably for me the most "algerian" skills Ive seen on swords around the mediterranean see (with the next one)... If a nimcha has a brass guard ? It is algerian ! (note by the ones ont the malta musueum of la vallette).

- The hole in the handle. I know that a lot of you prbably gonna a lough, but yeah, ALGERIANS LIKES HOLES

as for our bousaadi knife. This is also something Ive noticed the most, not to say only, on ancient algerian weapons (I mean, still around the mediterranean see, and for islamic weapons, except some sabers from arabic peninsula, from where that style is probably herited). But on sabers, the purpose is different than for the bousaadi knife (where the hole is made to keep the blade in the scabbard). on many algerian sabers, you will find that hole, on the upper part of the pommel, to attach a CHAIN, that join the guard (probably to protect the hand, I mean, just a little..). You can see the exact same things on some arabic saifs/sabers like shamshirs. But in algeria, you will find it in many models, as yatagan, or even a nimcha I have here, that already have a quillon that protect the hand, but also that hole.

To complete that, here is some ancient engravings, of what looks like our ancient swords, notice that CHAIN which join the guard, before most of them desappear with many wars, colonisation, or simply modernisation. We are very far from the classic nimcha or flissa, but those ones where at a time even more used than the other. Also a KNOWN ALGERIAN "barbary" not mine, but shared on a facebook group, I hope it is allowed... Notice the similarities in the work, like, as Ive mentionned, the brass guard. My friend and specialist of north african weapons Eric CLAUDE also confirm that this one is purely algerian.
The yatagan is to show the use of that chain on many algerian swods (written in french "took in algiers" on the blade), and some arabic saif to illustrate the style algerians copied.
And an algerian flissa, but a bit different, showing one ot the typical style of algerian handles under ottoman era, very close to this one, or even you can look to a "classic" algerian yatagan.
Best regards.

10th October 2021, 12:30 AM	#34
gp Member Join Date: May 2020 Posts: 837	a nice book to read, not on cold weapons but real literature is by Milos Crnjanski (writer and poet, a Habsburg soldier WWI on the front in Galicia, later diplomat of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia in Berlin ), German title "Panduren", English "Migrations", Serbian "Seobe" Last edited by gp; 10th October 2021 at 09:18 AM.

5th April 2022, 11:00 AM	#37
gp Member Join Date: May 2020 Posts: 837	and the last couple.... happy reading !☼☼☼ Attached Images

7th July 2025, 02:31 AM	#44
fennec Member Join Date: Feb 2023 Location: France Posts: 13	THIS IS ALGERIAN yeah, its me again, juste to add some "salt" to the discussion, as we say in french... naah, I mean, I'm not categoric, and I dont want to be that pathetic algerian guy who cry at any post about his elder craft, BUT.. This curious sword "could be" a north african composition, under ottoman era. Let me give some points : - Italian/Austrian european blade, as massivly used in algeria or tunisia for many nimcha, or "tunisian berber swords". Same era, same engravings, same roads of importations, or battle took. - A kind of "north african" work we can see on some nimcha, simple but effective just to use the blade, a shaped wooden handle, very common in "barbary era", due to a big need of weapons. the same blade in europe, should probably have a more "well made" handle, in my tought (thant local craftsman of Maghreb). - That handle shape, that is not without reminding me a lot with the "typical" shape of algerian yatagans hadles, offering the same kind of "finger emplacement", and also a bit the pommel. The decoration in it made with circles, is also well used in algeria and tunisia. - The brass guard... I mean.. as a specialist of algerian weapons, this is probably for me the most "algerian" skills Ive seen on swords around the mediterranean see (with the next one)... If a nimcha has a brass guard ? It is algerian ! (note by the ones ont the malta musueum of la vallette). - The hole in the handle. I know that a lot of you prbably gonna a lough, but yeah, ALGERIANS LIKES HOLES as for our bousaadi knife. This is also something Ive noticed the most, not to say only, on ancient algerian weapons (I mean, still around the mediterranean see, and for islamic weapons, except some sabers from arabic peninsula, from where that style is probably herited). But on sabers, the purpose is different than for the bousaadi knife (where the hole is made to keep the blade in the scabbard). on many algerian sabers, you will find that hole, on the upper part of the pommel, to attach a CHAIN, that join the guard (probably to protect the hand, I mean, just a little..). You can see the exact same things on some arabic saifs/sabers like shamshirs. But in algeria, you will find it in many models, as yatagan, or even a nimcha I have here, that already have a quillon that protect the hand, but also that hole. To complete that, here is some ancient engravings, of what looks like our ancient swords, notice that CHAIN which join the guard, before most of them desappear with many wars, colonisation, or simply modernisation. We are very far from the classic nimcha or flissa, but those ones where at a time even more used than the other. Also a KNOWN ALGERIAN "barbary" not mine, but shared on a facebook group, I hope it is allowed... Notice the similarities in the work, like, as Ive mentionned, the brass guard. My friend and specialist of north african weapons Eric CLAUDE also confirm that this one is purely algerian. The yatagan is to show the use of that chain on many algerian swods (written in french "took in algiers" on the blade), and some arabic saif to illustrate the style algerians copied. And an algerian flissa, but a bit different, showing one ot the typical style of algerian handles under ottoman era, very close to this one, or even you can look to a "classic" algerian yatagan. Best regards. Attached Images

9th October 2021, 05:28 PM	#31
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,371	Excellent synopsis GP, while the Pandours were indeed a specific group of diverse ethnicities formed into auxiliary forces for the armies of Maria Theresa in the wars of Spanish Succession in mid 18th c. They were comprised in many cases of border guards in Croatian regions as well as security forces. Other Balkan groups as well as Hungarians also were included. Baron Franz von Trenck, as you note formed these forces, who were assigned to carry out skirmishing as well as acquiring supplies. This unfortunately became ruthless pillaging and atrocious activity which led eventually to the disbandment of these forces and imprisonment of von Trenck. These forces had worn exotic oriental style clothing, and all manner of styles of hair, drooping mustaches, shaved heads with scalp locks etc. and brandished 'exotic' weaponry including the yataghan, and other Eastern sabers. Their terrifying look and demeanor remained profoundly in the minds of Europeans for decades, and their 'exploits' and threat became hubris which was placed on blades of weapons for decades, VIVAT PANDUR. Von Trenck's own yataghan style sword was sold at auction some years back, and had come from the Charles Buttin collection. A note on Robert Elgood's book on Balkan weapons. I recall when he was writing this, most of his emphasis was on the firearms, thus I suspect the yataghan coverage was less than as thorough as his usual work. The study of the yataghan itself is very complex because of its diversity and diffusion through thev expanse of the Ottoman Empire, so relying on a single resource without heavy cross referencing as you suggest , is essential.

10th October 2021, 08:25 PM	#35
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,371	GP, thank you SO very much for these amazing titles and being so helpful with this important literature! As you note, there is scant information on these Balkan weapons in the west, and many titles in these languages are not only hard to find, but to translate.

9th October 2022, 06:22 PM	#38
Interested Party Member Join Date: Dec 2019 Location: Eastern Sierra Posts: 504	GP I was rereading this bibliography and saw that I had neglected to thank you for sharing this wealth of information. It is much appreciated. I have goose egged on my title searches so for but now that I know what I am look for I will get lucky eventually. Thanks again.

1st April 2024, 09:03 PM	#40
Pertinax Member Join Date: Dec 2023 Location: City by the Black Sea Posts: 255	I will add books on the topic yataghan Э. Г. Аствацатурян Турецкое оружие в собрании Государственного Исторического музея G. E. Vvedensky YANISSARI, History symbols weapons Denis Cherevichnik To the Question of the Origin of Yatagan

1st April 2024, 10:18 PM	#42
Pertinax Member Join Date: Dec 2023 Location: City by the Black Sea Posts: 255	[QUOTE=gp;289982]Thnx a lot / bolshoj spassiba ! any advise where I can get Vvedensky's book ? searched worldwide in vain..... Look at here https://bookmarks.com.ua/en/products...-vvedenskij-ge https://piterbooks.ru/read.php?sname...nissari&page=1