Some questions about Balinese hilt cup.

[Wijaya34]

Here is mine, it looks like it had a stem cup selut before itwas removed by a previous owner, the blade is from java. I was told that the the entire wrangka set originated in west java.
I also attach another keris that features a pendok +topengan similar to mine and a bebondolan like hilt from the met.
And also another keris that i came across a few years ago with a similar pendok, but no stem cup selut.

[Gustav]

Thank you, Wijaya34!

The middle one from previous post was given to MET in 1932, after owners death, so I doubt it also would have been put together by dealer from Jalan Ngagel Tama.

[A. G. Maisey]

Gustav, I would greatly appreciate it if you would very carefully read my previous posts again. It would be rewarding if you would try to clearly understand what I have written, you might find that I am not in disagreement with anything that you have written.

If my writing is insufficiently clear, I apologise for this, but I do try.

I have not commented upon any keris in any images posted after my post #12.

What I have written in respect of your keris shown in post #11 is this:-

"The complete keris that you have shown in post #11 looks to be a mixture of component parts, I cannot relate it to any other keris I remember having seen."

I have no reason to doubt that it has considerable age, nor that it was removed from its original location a long time ago.

To my eye, this keris does look to be a mixture of parts, or perhaps styles, & in fact this is far from unusual when we look at old keris that originated in locations that were not under the influence of a major society or centre of culture.

My remarks in respect of a Surabaya dealer of some years past refer to the two keris that are illustrated in Mr. Jensen's Kris Disc, one keris is "Fig 87 State Keris", the other Jensen keris is "Chapter 7 Pag 16". My opinion in respect of these two keris has been formed by what I saw in the stock of the Surabaya gentleman concerned on those occasions when I visited his premises.

Your keris shown in post #11, and the keris with dark sarung & dark bebondolan hilt shown in post #6 are both classifiable as kekandikan forms if we apply Balinese terminology & standards.

One thing about this variation in the forms of keris scabbards is this:- in times past the islands of the Malay Archipelago were covered in many places by dense forest, travel & communication was difficult, rivers were used as roads, and the influence of style & fashion in major population centres was very constricted.

In locations that were not under the direct influence of kraton, or puri, or trading entrepot, the dress used for keris often varied considerably from the style or form that inspired it. In a small, and or remote town or village, it was not unusual for the local lord to initiate his own form of a major style.

In kraton society in Jawa, and puri society in Bali, the members of the ruling line of descent would sometimes commission their own keris dress styles that varied a little from the usual, sometimes this variant for would be copied by other members of the court. A very good example of this is the difference between South Bali style & North Bali style.

Over the years I have encountered many examples of keris dress that have been difficult to relate to the major forms in use today & during the immediate past. I have also encountered many examples of complete keris that combined components & styles from a number of different locations.

There is nothing unusual about this. But the major forms are known, whilst variant forms are not known, & in some cases a variant form may well be a "one-off".

[Gustav]

Alan, thank you very much for your detailed response.

Yes, regarding my Keris from #11 - mixture of styles sounds much more reasonable then mixture of parts. A mixture of styles from today's perspective, where such forms are rarely encountered and everything has boiled down to a few easily recognizable models.

What I was struggling to understand, is:

- in #12 you write, you "have never seen any Javanese wrongko that is able to be classified as "kekandikan" using Balinese standards".

- in #17 you write "Your keris shown in post #11, and the keris with dark sarung & dark bebondolan hilt shown in post #6 are both classifiable as kekandikan forms if we apply Balinese terminology & standards."

Here I oncemore would like to note, that Keris with dark Bebondolan from #6 most likely, my Keris from #11 surely are coming from island of Java, perhaps from land of Java. In "The Javanese Keris", 2009, a related form is depicted on p. 83 in a Central Javanese context.

Otherwise I agree with your last post, and of course not only the last one.

[Gustav]

irrelevant

[A. G. Maisey]

Gustav, please see my post #12, this is what I wrote relevant to the kekandikan form:-

"Gustav, I do not know a Javanese wrongko form that has the same or similar form to a Balinese kekandikan.

This is not to say that such a Javanese wrongko form has never existed, it is to say that I do not know of it, & have never seen any Javanese wrongko that is able to be classified as "kekandikan" using Balinese standards.

The kekandikan in post #6 would be classified as kekandikan in Bali, & I cannot see anything in the complete keris dress to indicate a Javanese origin."

I have seen & handled truly thousands of wrongkos, I cannot recall having ever seen a single Javanese made wrongko that could be classified as kekandikan, using Balinese standards. Not one.

Of course, my memory could be at fault, but I honestly do not believe so --- true, these days I have to think really hard to remember what I had for lunch yesterday but I can recall things from 20, 30 70 years ago, & sometimes with golden clarity.

However, once again I would like to draw your attention to what I actually wrote. I have given my opinion that the two keris in question definitely & without question do qualify as the Balinese kekandikan form. But at no time have I questioned your own opinion of where they were collected.

How could I ever question this?

I was not there when they were collected, I was not there when you purchased them, & it is entirely possible that at the time of purchase you were given information by the seller that you choose to believe.

Where they came from before they appeared in Europe is not up for discussion, nor argument, I accept your opinion.

Given that there is no dispute about where these wrongkos were collected, there remains the question of where they were made. Since this form is associated with Balinese royalty & nobility, & since it is a formal style in Bali, it seems reasonable to assume that both these wrongkos were made in Bali.

It does seem to be highly unlikely that this style could have been worn by a Javanese man in Javanese society, but it could well have been worn by a Balinese man anywhere.

As I have commented, the keris in post #11 is a mix of parts or styles, I have not seen a Balinese keris with a gandar like the one on the post # 11 keris, but I have seen a similar gandar on a North Coast Jawa keris.

In olden times there were a lot of Balinese people working in Jawa. Bali was a major supplier of slaves, the women were highly prized as both wives & servants, the men were more robust than Javanese men & were prized for heavy labour & as guards. Moving up the social scale a bit from debt slaves, marriages between noble and royal families, and also between merchant families from Jawa and other places was not at all uncommon. Going back for more than 1000 years, Jawa & other places in SE Asia were not isolated from one another, people moved from one place to another, & they took their keris with them.

True, movement from one place to another was not as easy & not as fast as it is now, for this reason lower status people perhaps did not move more than a day's walk from where they were born, but people higher up the pecking order & people who were items of trade, did move or were moved.

In the Mangkunegaraan palace in Solo, there is an exhibition of keris that were worn by Balinese men employed as guards, the dress on these keris is a mix of Balinese style & Javanese style. I once owned a keris that had a Balinese bebondolan gambar & a Surakarta gandar & pendok, I had purchased this keris from a private seller in Solo, it had belonged to one of his ancestors who had been Balinese, but who had moved to Jawa Tengah some time before WWI.

The location where something has been collected is not any indication of where it originally came from, however, since the keris is both a societal icon & a personal identifier, that is to say it indicates the origin & status of the custodian and/or wearer, it can continue to function in a society other than its society of origin. The factor that indicates the origin of a keris, both the blade & the dress, is style, because it is the style that gives evidence of the place of production.

As for the photo in the book "The Javanese keris" the same reasoning as above applies equally to that keris, it may have been collected in Ngayogyakarta, but where was it made, & for whom? We do not know. All we know is where it was collected, & that is no indicator at all to its origin nor its previous ownership.

If this gambar style was indeed a Central Javanese style at, or prior to, the date of its collection, why is it that we do not regularly come across examples in Javanese markets? Thousands upon thousands of old Javanese wrongkos often broken beyond repair, in the garbage bins of market place sellers, but never have I seen an example of this kekandikan wrongko style in a garbage bin --- & yes, I used to regularly look in the throwaway stuff. Nor on a keris for that matter. Why is the style unknown to Javanese tukangs wrongko now?

These two kekandikans under discussion may have been collected in Jawa, I accept without question your opinion that they were, but this style is Balinese, & has a place in Balinese society, it has no place in Javanese society.