Are Asadollah cartouches/signatures found on Ottoman blades? Or only Persian blades?

[Sakalord364]

Originally Posted by Lee

To state the obvious, just in case it isn't:

Persian blades marked with the cartouches of those celebrated smiths are commonly also found in Mughal Indian and Ottoman mounts.

There is about a three hundred year span when so-marked blades were actually made and the vast majority could not have been made within any single working human craftsman's lifetime.

Serdar, this sounds more than a little like the situation with the +ULFBERHT+ markings on early European blades. Thank you for the insight.

Sorry I should have specified, I know actual persian blades were used by ottomans, but I was specifically wondering if ottomans for example forged their own blades and imitated the asadullah mark on them- this is a purported example from an old auction, but I cannot read the cartouche to confirm

[Oliver Pinchot]

In the case of this sword, the question is moot.
The inscription reads Mash'Allah, meaning God has willed it,
rather than Assad Allah.

[Sakalord364]

Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot

In the case of this sword, the question is moot.
The inscription reads Mash'Allah, meaning God has willed it,
rather than Assad Allah.

Thanks for the clarification, I’ve seen it mentioned by collectors that Ottomans and Indians imitated asadullah cartouches on blades they forged themselves, should this be discounted as fiction? I know at least Afghans imitated these marking on Afghan blades, but I was wondering if this was also practiced among Ottomans and Indians.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Sakalord364

Thanks for the clarification, I’ve seen it mentioned by collectors that Ottomans and Indians imitated asadullah cartouches on blades they forged themselves, should this be discounted as fiction? I know at least Afghans imitated these marking on Afghan blades, but I was wondering if this was also practiced among Ottomans and Indians.

Would be interested to know of examples or references showing Afghan blades with spurious examples of the pictograph lion or signature of Assad Allah.
Also, the Ottoman and Indian examples with these blades, are there references saying these blades were made by swordsmiths in those regions? The only examples I have seen are locally hilted in their styles mounted with trade blades of the familiar pictograph type.

[Sakalord364]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Would be interested to know of examples or references showing Afghan blades with spurious examples of the pictograph lion or signature of Assad Allah.
Also, the Ottoman and Indian examples with these blades, are there references saying these blades were made by swordsmiths in those regions? The only examples I have seen are locally hilted in their styles mounted with trade blades of the familiar pictograph type.

Here is one Afghan example with a spurious Asadullah marking, from the forum.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18215

My hypothesis is due to how fashionable asadullah blades were Afghans copied the markings, similar to how Italian eyelash markings were copied by Indian craftsman on their blades. I wonder if only the afghans did this, or if it was widespread among makers of shamshir style blades

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you for adding that old thread, its always good to see the 'good old days' years ago and the great writers who seldom appear these days.
Its good to see the Assad Allah signature (even though spurious) as opposed to the pictograph blades which I am more used to.

On the spurious use of renowned signatures and marks, this is not exclusive to any region or period, and was of course a common practice constantly with sword blades. Persian blades were much admired and desired throughout North India, Central Asia and Middle East.
Afghan arms makers were masterful at copying all elements of weapons and duplicating arms.

The copying of the sickle marks (Genoan and Styrian) on Indian blades seems most common on the paluoar, the Afghan version of Indian tulwar (Egerton 1885). The use of these sickle marks became popularly used outside North Italy (not just Genoa) via the prolific diffusion of trade blades to many foreign ports through the centuries.

Using that analogy, it is quite understandable that the Assad Allah signature would be copied widely as a mark of quality, but I cannot say which blade producers of shamshir blades outside Iran might have used them.