Splendid silver Tulwar for translation and comments

Gonzoadler · 24th June 2025, 11:15 PM

Thank you for the comments, especially Jim McDougall's are as always well researched and interesting.
I know that this is not an easy piece because it is very unique in style and the very good overall condition can iritate. But I have no doubt that it is an old piece, because of some traces of age like restaurations on the upper fitting of the scabbard and the fine wootz blade, which doesn't look like a modern copy. Maybe it needs a new etching.
The suggestion that it is maybe a presentation or court sword seems plausible to me.
Maybe some other members have seen something similar in the past and can post it. An estimation of the age of the handle and scabbard would be interesting, too, they are not necessarily as old as the blade, like many Ottoman swords show.
Also a translation of the inscriptions on both sides would be great.

Regards
Robin

Jim McDougall · 25th June 2025, 02:58 PM

Robin thank you so much for the very kind words which mean a lot. I do tend to get very involved with researching, and coincidentally have recently been studying English silver hilt swords and the artisans producing them in what is termed the Regency Period (late George III and George IV).

These were important times in the British Raj in India with the fall of Tipu Sultan in 1799 ending the 4th Anglo Mysore war, and the advent of British power, occupation and diplomacy in administrating India.

Rather than this intriguing example being a direct tulwar form, in my opinion it reflects a combining of both elements of Mughal weapons and the subtle but elegant rococo decoration taken from Regency Period silverwork.

It would seem logical that this sword would have been likely to have been involved in the diplomatic settings of the durbar type assemblies in India in the years after Seringapatam (1799) as the British organized the administration of the British Raj in the princely states of the Mughal Empire.

With high grade weapons like this, wootz blade, silver, filagree etc. they are likely to have been kept in safe locations and specifically cared for, so it is diffficult to assess age. The actual wording in the cartouches are copied it seems from the well known Assad Allah trade blade motif, so are probably non specific as far as useful as far as further identification.

These are simply my opinions and as always I look forward to observations of others here, especially in seeing other high quality examples like this which may have such potential diplomatic orientation.

Gonzoadler · 25th June 2025, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Robin thank you so much for the very kind words which mean a lot. I do tend to get very involved with researching, and coincidentally have recently been studying English silver hilt swords and the artisans producing them in what is termed the Regency Period (late George III and George IV).

These were important times in the British Raj in India with the fall of Tipu Sultan in 1799 ending the 4th Anglo Mysore war, and the advent of British power, occupation and diplomacy in administrating India.

Rather than this intriguing example being a direct tulwar form, in my opinion it reflects a combining of both elements of Mughal weapons and the subtle but elegant rococo decoration taken from Regency Period silverwork.

It would seem logical that this sword would have been likely to have been involved in the diplomatic settings of the durbar type assemblies in India in the years after Seringapatam (1799) as the British organized the administration of the British Raj in the princely states of the Mughal Empire.

With high grade weapons like this, wootz blade, silver, filagree etc. they are likely to have been kept in safe locations and specifically cared for, so it is diffficult to assess age. The actual wording in the cartouches are copied it seems from the well known Assad Allah trade blade motif, so are probably non specific as far as useful as far as further identification.

These are simply my opinions and as always I look forward to observations of others here, especially in seeing other high quality examples like this which may have such potential diplomatic orientation.

Thanks again for that interesting information.
Nearly three years ago I postet a distantly similar hanger from my collection. It has an interesting silver hilt, too, but is also a bit mysterious and maybe not helpful.

Here is that piece:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=28242

Jim McDougall · 25th June 2025, 04:02 PM

Thank you for linking this, and the guys had some great observations on that as well, indeed most unusual as it appears remarkably in the same styling loosely as this sword. In the 18th century, there was profound interest in 'oriental style' in Europe, especially 'chinasorie' decoration particularly in smallswords and court swords, The use of shakudo and other alloyed material was used in many of the hilts and scabbards.

As I mentioned, even the swordsmiths such as Thomas Gill provided high end blades for sumptuous hilts such as Chinese jian which were highly decorated in precious metal.

These kinds of remarkable 'oriental' (in those days India was included with the Middle East and the Orient in that description) hilts and mounts were often paired with high end blades with their own venerable character.
While these kinds of weapons are usually of course 'one off' and privately commissioned, it is of course hard to assess based on comparisons available in references. Most court and presentation arms are only referenced in highly esoteric and specialized material.

You are very fortunate to have acquired these two weapons which seem to have remarkably similar character in the combined interpretations of styling and silver reflecting traditional elements and the potential for diplomatic associations of these times.

serdar · 27th June 2025, 01:07 PM

That blade profile and AA acid markings are indian, cartuches are too big and over dimensioned, and engraved by acid, indian blade 19 century maybe end of 18.

Filigree is not at all real filigree work with wire but a cast piece that is clearly visible from photos, real goldsmith filigree is braided silver wire, there is no wire on this piece, it is cast in a mould from uniform metal, and definetly it is not a real filigree work. And that cape and handle pieces doesent seem old indian work.

It should be examined in hands, but to me that doesent look older than 20 century, second half of 20.century (handle and scabbard).

It isnt similar to non of old tulwars or indian swords i have examined, but that fake filigree casting i have seen on a few indian tulwars and pulwars from 20 century.

Gonzoadler · 27th June 2025, 02:12 PM

Hello Serdar,

That blade profile and AA acid markings are indian, cartuches are too big and over dimensioned, and engraved by acid, indian blade 19 century maybe end of 18.

Possibly you are right, but you can find many Assadullah-blades with etched cartouches in the internet and I doubt that they are all Indian. Also there is a long tradition of etching steel in Persia. So I would be carefully to argue with that against a Persian origin.

Filigree is not at all real filigree work with wire but a cast piece that is clearly visible from photos, real goldsmith filigree is braided silver wire, there is no wire on this piece, it is cast in a mould from uniform metal, and definetly it is not a real filigree work. And that cape and handle pieces doesent seem old indian work.

I never wrote that it is filigree, as I stated in my opening post the fittings are pierced, which is clearly visible. I don't see an attempt to imitate silver filigree.

Before I posted the sword here, I looked in the internet for similar decorations on old or modern Indian swords but didn't found one, not pierced and not in filigree. That the handle is not typically Indian is very clear, too. So of course the whole sword is no traditional Indian work at all. It seems highly influenced by European and Persian style, which causes my questions about the purpose and the origin.

It should be examined in hands, but to me that doesent look older than 20 century, second half of 20.century (handle and scabbard).

It isnt similar to non of old tulwars or indian swords i have examined, but that fake filigree casting i have seen on a few indian tulwars and pulwars from 20 century.

Can you show similar silverwork from that time? Or generally fake Indian weapons which have this "fake filigree" (which isn't that, in my opinion) or other similar features like the shown sword?

Kind regards
Robin

Jim McDougall · 27th June 2025, 04:15 PM

It is really a hard call, it is a well known practice to have more modern interpretations of old sword forms, or examples done 'in the manner of' so and so, paired with genuine old blades. While it is of course tempting to presume that this was done to preserve a heirloom blade, trophy, or one that is traditionally or historically significant ....the 'elephant in the room' is of course that modern artisans do this deceptively.
Naturally, this is quite common, but there are typically ways the experts can tell......unfortunately I am no 'expert' so cannot declare one way or another.

My purpose in posting was to illustrate possible scenarios in which such a sword might be fashioned and for what purpose.

I will point out that Persian culture, thus weapons and items are typically profoundly represented in that of Mughal India. As I earlier noted, the popular European rococo styling is incorporated into the elements of Indian and Persian decoration, as would have been notable in the period I noted, first half 19th, possibly slightly later.

The wootz (watered steel) blade would be hard to consider modern, though I know that modern artisans so produce artificial examples on knives. With the pictogram cartouche of the lion and sun, which became the Qajar dynastic crest in early 19th c. (Pinchot, 2002, note 42), these cartouches along with bold Islamic script in panels and cartouches, these appeared on the ubiquitous Persian trade blades of mid-late 18th into early 19th c.

These Persian trade blades were popular through trade channels from Arabia, and most regions under Ottoman suzerainty, through India (on tulwars), Malaysia, most of the Middle East and even the Caucasus. Therefore, these blades are not 'Indian' , but widely diffused Persian trade blades.

These trade blades using a pictograph rather than signature of the famed Assad Allah of Isfahan of late 16th into early 17th c. are using his name simply as a mark of quality and commemoration.

While of course modern reproductions of the swords of India and others are made, this kind of quality seems far beyond examples of those regularly seen. I did once have a nicely mounted Polish karabela with silver mounts (but simpler) which 'by the numbers' looked right, and the blade was notably a heavy 17th century tulwar blade with inscription in Urdu and a katar stamp.
Impressive, with old blade.

27th June 2025, 01:07 PM	#5
serdar Member Join Date: Feb 2023 Posts: 149	That blade profile and AA acid markings are indian, cartuches are too big and over dimensioned, and engraved by acid, indian blade 19 century maybe end of 18. Filigree is not at all real filigree work with wire but a cast piece that is clearly visible from photos, real goldsmith filigree is braided silver wire, there is no wire on this piece, it is cast in a mould from uniform metal, and definetly it is not a real filigree work. And that cape and handle pieces doesent seem old indian work. It should be examined in hands, but to me that doesent look older than 20 century, second half of 20.century (handle and scabbard). It isnt similar to non of old tulwars or indian swords i have examined, but that fake filigree casting i have seen on a few indian tulwars and pulwars from 20 century. Last edited by serdar; 27th June 2025 at 01:25 PM.

24th June 2025, 11:15 PM	#1
Gonzoadler Member Join Date: Jun 2020 Location: Germany Posts: 271	Thank you for the comments, especially Jim McDougall's are as always well researched and interesting. I know that this is not an easy piece because it is very unique in style and the very good overall condition can iritate. But I have no doubt that it is an old piece, because of some traces of age like restaurations on the upper fitting of the scabbard and the fine wootz blade, which doesn't look like a modern copy. Maybe it needs a new etching. The suggestion that it is maybe a presentation or court sword seems plausible to me. Maybe some other members have seen something similar in the past and can post it. An estimation of the age of the handle and scabbard would be interesting, too, they are not necessarily as old as the blade, like many Ottoman swords show. Also a translation of the inscriptions on both sides would be great. Regards Robin

25th June 2025, 02:58 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,336	Robin thank you so much for the very kind words which mean a lot. I do tend to get very involved with researching, and coincidentally have recently been studying English silver hilt swords and the artisans producing them in what is termed the Regency Period (late George III and George IV). These were important times in the British Raj in India with the fall of Tipu Sultan in 1799 ending the 4th Anglo Mysore war, and the advent of British power, occupation and diplomacy in administrating India. Rather than this intriguing example being a direct tulwar form, in my opinion it reflects a combining of both elements of Mughal weapons and the subtle but elegant rococo decoration taken from Regency Period silverwork. It would seem logical that this sword would have been likely to have been involved in the diplomatic settings of the durbar type assemblies in India in the years after Seringapatam (1799) as the British organized the administration of the British Raj in the princely states of the Mughal Empire. With high grade weapons like this, wootz blade, silver, filagree etc. they are likely to have been kept in safe locations and specifically cared for, so it is diffficult to assess age. The actual wording in the cartouches are copied it seems from the well known Assad Allah trade blade motif, so are probably non specific as far as useful as far as further identification. These are simply my opinions and as always I look forward to observations of others here, especially in seeing other high quality examples like this which may have such potential diplomatic orientation.

25th June 2025, 04:02 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,336	Thank you for linking this, and the guys had some great observations on that as well, indeed most unusual as it appears remarkably in the same styling loosely as this sword. In the 18th century, there was profound interest in 'oriental style' in Europe, especially 'chinasorie' decoration particularly in smallswords and court swords, The use of shakudo and other alloyed material was used in many of the hilts and scabbards. As I mentioned, even the swordsmiths such as Thomas Gill provided high end blades for sumptuous hilts such as Chinese jian which were highly decorated in precious metal. These kinds of remarkable 'oriental' (in those days India was included with the Middle East and the Orient in that description) hilts and mounts were often paired with high end blades with their own venerable character. While these kinds of weapons are usually of course 'one off' and privately commissioned, it is of course hard to assess based on comparisons available in references. Most court and presentation arms are only referenced in highly esoteric and specialized material. You are very fortunate to have acquired these two weapons which seem to have remarkably similar character in the combined interpretations of styling and silver reflecting traditional elements and the potential for diplomatic associations of these times.

27th June 2025, 02:12 PM	#6
Gonzoadler Member Join Date: Jun 2020 Location: Germany Posts: 271	Hello Serdar, That blade profile and AA acid markings are indian, cartuches are too big and over dimensioned, and engraved by acid, indian blade 19 century maybe end of 18. Possibly you are right, but you can find many Assadullah-blades with etched cartouches in the internet and I doubt that they are all Indian. Also there is a long tradition of etching steel in Persia. So I would be carefully to argue with that against a Persian origin. Filigree is not at all real filigree work with wire but a cast piece that is clearly visible from photos, real goldsmith filigree is braided silver wire, there is no wire on this piece, it is cast in a mould from uniform metal, and definetly it is not a real filigree work. And that cape and handle pieces doesent seem old indian work. I never wrote that it is filigree, as I stated in my opening post the fittings are pierced, which is clearly visible. I don't see an attempt to imitate silver filigree. Before I posted the sword here, I looked in the internet for similar decorations on old or modern Indian swords but didn't found one, not pierced and not in filigree. That the handle is not typically Indian is very clear, too. So of course the whole sword is no traditional Indian work at all. It seems highly influenced by European and Persian style, which causes my questions about the purpose and the origin. It should be examined in hands, but to me that doesent look older than 20 century, second half of 20.century (handle and scabbard). It isnt similar to non of old tulwars or indian swords i have examined, but that fake filigree casting i have seen on a few indian tulwars and pulwars from 20 century. Can you show similar silverwork from that time? Or generally fake Indian weapons which have this "fake filigree" (which isn't that, in my opinion) or other similar features like the shown sword? Kind regards Robin

27th June 2025, 04:15 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,336	It is really a hard call, it is a well known practice to have more modern interpretations of old sword forms, or examples done 'in the manner of' so and so, paired with genuine old blades. While it is of course tempting to presume that this was done to preserve a heirloom blade, trophy, or one that is traditionally or historically significant ....the 'elephant in the room' is of course that modern artisans do this deceptively. Naturally, this is quite common, but there are typically ways the experts can tell......unfortunately I am no 'expert' so cannot declare one way or another. My purpose in posting was to illustrate possible scenarios in which such a sword might be fashioned and for what purpose. I will point out that Persian culture, thus weapons and items are typically profoundly represented in that of Mughal India. As I earlier noted, the popular European rococo styling is incorporated into the elements of Indian and Persian decoration, as would have been notable in the period I noted, first half 19th, possibly slightly later. The wootz (watered steel) blade would be hard to consider modern, though I know that modern artisans so produce artificial examples on knives. With the pictogram cartouche of the lion and sun, which became the Qajar dynastic crest in early 19th c. (Pinchot, 2002, note 42), these cartouches along with bold Islamic script in panels and cartouches, these appeared on the ubiquitous Persian trade blades of mid-late 18th into early 19th c. These Persian trade blades were popular through trade channels from Arabia, and most regions under Ottoman suzerainty, through India (on tulwars), Malaysia, most of the Middle East and even the Caucasus. Therefore, these blades are not 'Indian' , but widely diffused Persian trade blades. These trade blades using a pictograph rather than signature of the famed Assad Allah of Isfahan of late 16th into early 17th c. are using his name simply as a mark of quality and commemoration. While of course modern reproductions of the swords of India and others are made, this kind of quality seems far beyond examples of those regularly seen. I did once have a nicely mounted Polish karabela with silver mounts (but simpler) which 'by the numbers' looked right, and the blade was notably a heavy 17th century tulwar blade with inscription in Urdu and a katar stamp. Impressive, with old blade.