Keris patrem ?

GIO · 8th April 2025, 05:53 PM

Good afternoon to all friends
Recently I purchased this small beauty at an online auction. I did not realize the real size, and thought it was a patrem, but now I an not so sure and think this is in fact a miniature kris. It is a very recent manufacture and very very well made, as you can see from the enclosed pics.
Any comments ?
Thanks in advance to everybody

GIO · 8th April 2025, 05:56 PM

Sorry, one pic has not been attached

GIO · 8th April 2025, 05:57 PM

The file is considered not safe. Please apologize

GIO · 8th April 2025, 06:01 PM

Trying again

GIO · 8th April 2025, 06:04 PM

Again

GIO · 8th April 2025, 06:11 PM

Once more

GIO · 8th April 2025, 06:49 PM

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David · 8th April 2025, 08:21 PM

Hi Gio. I'm not sure why, but there is defintely a problem with the files you are attempting to upload. I note that they are PDFs. Though that is an acceptable file type for upload, perhaps you could try converting these files to JPGs and see if that works better.

GIO · 8th April 2025, 09:47 PM

Thanks David. I shall follow your suggestion.
I cannot understand what is wrong: what I tried to upload is a scan of an image.

GIO · 8th April 2025, 10:12 PM

Files in jpg

GIO · 8th April 2025, 10:15 PM

The blade is 14 cm (5,5 inch)

Ian · 13th April 2025, 04:36 PM

GIO,

The problem with .pdf files is that the forum software treats these as document attachments and not as a graphic format that can be displayed. Document formats are appended to the post and need to be downloaded in order to view them. Graphic formats (.jpg, .giff, .png) will display as images.

Hope this helps.

Ian.

GIO · 13th April 2025, 04:45 PM

Many thanks Ian. I am not familiar at all with such - for me sophisticated - aspects.
Gio

GIO · 14th April 2025, 01:35 PM

Relatively low number of views, but 1868 is a good number.
Still no comments ?

Sajen · 14th April 2025, 06:49 PM

Hello Gio,

I can't answer your question but I have seen a few Balinese keris hilts of very similar size like the hilt from your keris.

Regards,
Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 14th April 2025, 11:36 PM

I would be very reluctant to consider this tiny object in the form of a keris as something made specifically for a woman.

My reason for this is that I do not know of any situation in Balinese society where a Balinese woman would have occasion to wear or use such an object.

Maurice · 15th April 2025, 11:08 AM

And how about Javanese kerisses of this small length?
Are they more common in Java?

Kind refegards,
Maurice

David · 15th April 2025, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maurice

And how about Javanese kerisses of this small length?
Are they more common in Java?

Kind refegards,
Maurice

I would say that patrem are not exactly "common" in Jawa, but they are more likely to exist there.

David · 15th April 2025, 04:20 PM

Gio, i would say that you would be more likely to get comments if you could provide some better and more detailed images of the keris. The PDFs you provided are too small to be able to give much feedback and the first images you provided are a bit blurry.
From what i can see i agree that this blade is rather recent. Though dressed in Balinese form it gives me the impression of something made elsewhere, perhaps Madura. I see a reasonably well formed blade here, but i am afraid i do not see a "very, very well made" one. I could be wrong, but the blade appears to have been made without a core similar to Buntel Mayat.
I tend to agree with Alan about the lack of Balinese situations where a patrem would be worn. I could be wrong, but i also don't thing there are too many patrems being commissioned these days for cultural uses even in Jawa where they are a know part of the culture, though uncommon even there. So since this is a modern creation i am not sure we should be calling it a patrem.
It is an attractive little item though.

GIO · 18th April 2025, 02:22 PM

Many thanks for your answers. I myself have already excluded it as a keris patrem, I confirm the high level of craftmanship, the pamor as "buntel majat" (hence the absence of a core). My question is therefore: "what was it made for ??". Is it a form of talisman ?
Apart from any consideration I consider it a nice item and am happy to have purchased it.
Thank again for the cooperation and best regards. Gio

David · 18th April 2025, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GIO

Many thanks for your answers. I myself have already excluded it as a keris patrem, I confirm the high level of craftmanship, the pamor as "buntel majat" (hence the absence of a core). My question is therefore: "what was it made for ??". Is it a form of talisman ?
Apart from any consideration I consider it a nice item and am happy to have purchased it.
Thank again for the cooperation and best regards. Gio

Could have been made for a number of reasons. Yes, a could have been intended as a jimat (talisman), but it could just as easily be an item created purely for collectors as many modern keris are.

Pak Daud · 29th May 2025, 10:21 AM

Gio,
I think this is 7 luk (waves) keris, but you are right, this is Kamardikan (after the independence or after) so it is considered newly minted. Pamor "Gubet".
It is definitly Balinese style, with Hilt carving as Togog? (I am not sure).
Good on dark staining as well.
In my opinion, since it is relatively small in measurement, it is NOT considered as Patrem, in which was Javanese term for the Keris obtained for female owner.
Smaller than patrem, then It may perceived as Keris "Jimatan" (Talisman) or keris "Tayuhan" (higher degree from just a talisman).
They are both have values within isoterical beliefs (such as represent of certain dieties etc).

IMHO, it was usually meant for "housing", an empty vessel, a place for dieties to be sat in. For example, in Balinese Hindu, a trader, a farmer, animal husbandries etc must corelate upon certain dieties that reflect to his job intended.

Anyway, it is good collection, fair build and clearly it's a charm.
Congrats Gio.

A. G. Maisey · 30th May 2025, 03:58 AM

Possibly even a charm to charm duit from the pockets of travellers into a sellers pockets.

But seriously, yes, sure it could be regarded as a charm with talismanic properties, provided it has been made as such.

I only know one person in Jawa & Bali who can make a keris using the correct mantras. Only one. And he will only make such a keris for a temple, not for an individual.

Pak Daud · 30th May 2025, 05:03 PM

True that, to charm duit.

GIO · 30th May 2025, 06:55 PM

Many thanks for your comments, Pak Daud and Alan. I do not consider this item a talisman, I only consider this small "keris" a nice and uncommon manufacture which will not disfigure into my modest keris collection.

8th April 2025, 10:12 PM	#10
GIO Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 329	Files in jpg Attached Images

8th April 2025, 05:57 PM	#3
GIO Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 329	The file is considered not safe. Please apologize

8th April 2025, 08:21 PM	#8
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	Hi Gio. I'm not sure why, but there is defintely a problem with the files you are attempting to upload. I note that they are PDFs. Though that is an acceptable file type for upload, perhaps you could try converting these files to JPGs and see if that works better.

8th April 2025, 09:47 PM	#9
GIO Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 329	Thanks David. I shall follow your suggestion. I cannot understand what is wrong: what I tried to upload is a scan of an image.

8th April 2025, 10:15 PM	#11
GIO Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 329	The blade is 14 cm (5,5 inch)

13th April 2025, 04:36 PM	#12
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,389	GIO, The problem with .pdf files is that the forum software treats these as document attachments and not as a graphic format that can be displayed. Document formats are appended to the post and need to be downloaded in order to view them. Graphic formats (.jpg, .giff, .png) will display as images. Hope this helps. Ian.

13th April 2025, 04:45 PM	#13
GIO Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 329	Many thanks Ian. I am not familiar at all with such - for me sophisticated - aspects. Gio

14th April 2025, 01:35 PM	#14
GIO Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 329	Relatively low number of views, but 1868 is a good number. Still no comments ?

14th April 2025, 06:49 PM	#15
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,183	Hello Gio, I can't answer your question but I have seen a few Balinese keris hilts of very similar size like the hilt from your keris. Regards, Detlef

14th April 2025, 11:36 PM	#16
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,010	I would be very reluctant to consider this tiny object in the form of a keris as something made specifically for a woman. My reason for this is that I do not know of any situation in Balinese society where a Balinese woman would have occasion to wear or use such an object.

15th April 2025, 11:08 AM	#17
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,453	And how about Javanese kerisses of this small length? Are they more common in Java? Kind refegards, Maurice

15th April 2025, 04:20 PM	#19
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	Gio, i would say that you would be more likely to get comments if you could provide some better and more detailed images of the keris. The PDFs you provided are too small to be able to give much feedback and the first images you provided are a bit blurry. From what i can see i agree that this blade is rather recent. Though dressed in Balinese form it gives me the impression of something made elsewhere, perhaps Madura. I see a reasonably well formed blade here, but i am afraid i do not see a "very, very well made" one. I could be wrong, but the blade appears to have been made without a core similar to Buntel Mayat. I tend to agree with Alan about the lack of Balinese situations where a patrem would be worn. I could be wrong, but i also don't thing there are too many patrems being commissioned these days for cultural uses even in Jawa where they are a know part of the culture, though uncommon even there. So since this is a modern creation i am not sure we should be calling it a patrem. It is an attractive little item though.

18th April 2025, 02:22 PM	#20
GIO Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 329	Many thanks for your answers. I myself have already excluded it as a keris patrem, I confirm the high level of craftmanship, the pamor as "buntel majat" (hence the absence of a core). My question is therefore: "what was it made for ??". Is it a form of talisman ? Apart from any consideration I consider it a nice item and am happy to have purchased it. Thank again for the cooperation and best regards. Gio

29th May 2025, 10:21 AM	#22
Pak Daud Member Join Date: May 2024 Posts: 6	Gio, I think this is 7 luk (waves) keris, but you are right, this is Kamardikan (after the independence or after) so it is considered newly minted. Pamor "Gubet". It is definitly Balinese style, with Hilt carving as Togog? (I am not sure). Good on dark staining as well. In my opinion, since it is relatively small in measurement, it is NOT considered as Patrem, in which was Javanese term for the Keris obtained for female owner. Smaller than patrem, then It may perceived as Keris "Jimatan" (Talisman) or keris "Tayuhan" (higher degree from just a talisman). They are both have values within isoterical beliefs (such as represent of certain dieties etc). IMHO, it was usually meant for "housing", an empty vessel, a place for dieties to be sat in. For example, in Balinese Hindu, a trader, a farmer, animal husbandries etc must corelate upon certain dieties that reflect to his job intended. Anyway, it is good collection, fair build and clearly it's a charm. Congrats Gio.

30th May 2025, 03:58 AM	#23
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,010	Possibly even a charm to charm duit from the pockets of travellers into a sellers pockets. But seriously, yes, sure it could be regarded as a charm with talismanic properties, provided it has been made as such. I only know one person in Jawa & Bali who can make a keris using the correct mantras. Only one. And he will only make such a keris for a temple, not for an individual.

30th May 2025, 05:03 PM	#24
Pak Daud Member Join Date: May 2024 Posts: 6	True that, to charm duit.

30th May 2025, 06:55 PM	#25
GIO Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 329	Many thanks for your comments, Pak Daud and Alan. I do not consider this item a talisman, I only consider this small "keris" a nice and uncommon manufacture which will not disfigure into my modest keris collection.