Old Spanish Colonial Sword-Curious Blade

[Jim McDougall]

This old Spanish sword I was told many years ago had come from the Carolinas. The striated shell guard vertical to the hilt, and the downward inner langet as with sash worn weapons. In posts about 2 years ago, it was suggested that the blade is notably newer than the hilt, but clearly a very old pairing.

The hilt form is suggestive of espada ancha in degree, but earlier in 18th century than the typical forms of the Mexican frontiers.
In the illustration from "Lore of Arms", William Reid, 1976, p.124, a Spanish sword by Corrientes (Toledo, Madrid, d.1733) is shown reflecting possible proto-form for the hilt from late 17th c.

The blade is backsword, 33.5 " long, and would seem a horsemans.
The puzzling thing is this elliptical central fuller, which does not seem 18th century, nor Spanish.

Can anyone help with identifying the blade, which seems pretty unusual.

[fernando]

Jim, is it me, or you have posted this one a while back ? .





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[Jim McDougall]

Yup, I did, and your help with the detail on that maker, Corrientes, was remarkable! That gave me just the support I hoped for in establishing the hilt form as quite early (in comparison to the espada ancha firm of later in the 18th c).
In the thread "The Espada Ancha Myth" (another of my attempts at encouraging interest in these esoteric weapons) of July, 2022, Midelburgo noted also that the hilt was notably earlier than the blade.

So I brought the sword to this thread to focus on the blade, which is of a type I have not seen, especially on a Spanish colonial sword, so am hoping someone out there might recognize the unusual fuller shape. A separate thread seemed the best bet.

[midelburgo]

Hello,
I have not been around for several months.

These hilts are typically Brazilean, many sport inscriptions with emperor Pedro II of Brazil. Old thread:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...zilian+cutlass

Your blade remembers me of cavalry ones made by Alex Coppel for Brazil (last at the bottom). Similar to British 1853. But all these are slightly curved.

Last year I bought one of them at a good price. With what seemed a German export XVIIIth century blade for the Spanish market.

I am still puzzled. All the parts seem perfectly made, no reproduction, distal tape, balance, engravings, a very sharp blade... all seem correct. But they look like recently made.

I have been searching if anybody makes them, with no results. Seller had no idea of the Brazilean origins. The blade is just the same as others I have but just new! No horn grip, it is wood. Current hypothesis is that somebody made an iron wrought modern hilt for an old blade. Brutal weapon.

By the way, it seems somebody is making very accurate copies of Spanish swords now (1728 model). I hanged a warning at Esgrima Antigua (but that forum seems dead now).

https://www.esgrimaantigua.com/forum...5fe65001ae22ce

[awdaniec666]

Maybe more and better images of the blade would help..

[Jim McDougall]

Midelburgo, thank you for reviving this thread of mine, and for your addition of this interesting example of what we agree seems a style of hilt in vogue in Spanish South America, particularly in Brazil. It seems these hilts with the distinct 'hand nock' for the back of the hand in grip, may have influence from Spains colonies in Morocco, and the familiar sa'if known as 'nimcha'.

As the 'Spanish Main' in the 'South Seas' of Central and South America was of course active with trade networks that well connected these areas, and in the 19th century it seems that these forms of espada combined these traditional hilt forms with more modern blades in numerous instances.

It seems that while British blades were commonly used on these , in the case of the example you have posted is what appears to be a Toledo made saber blade of the late 18th c.(after the factory was reopened by Carlos III c. 1770).
The hilt is you note seems refabricated, but seems possibly a traditional refurbishing from the 19th century and perhaps genuinely intended for use in these regions.

It seems well known that in colonial regions swords were often refurbished for continued use with various old components, as the sword remained a traditional icon. These were stubbornly retained as an element of armament despite notions of obsolescence as secondary to firearms. I think of the notorious 'rurales' of Porfirio Diaz in Mexico, who despite being heavily armed with rifles and revolvers, insisted on wearing cavalry sabers into the early 20th c.

In the case of my example (OP) I had often thought of the blade being much later, and indeed perhaps British, but admit that I was reluctant to accept that the hilt, obviously quite old, was not homogenous to the blade.
In more recent years after learning more on the Spanish colonial swords of these regions, I can see how a valued old hilt would be joined with a newer blade in the circumstances in the 19th century I have noted.

As seen in the illustration from Reid (1976, p.124) showing a Spanish hunting sword with remarkably similar hilt style of the 18th c. illustrates early these 'nimcha' type hilts were in use. The noted feature of the striated shell guard popular with Spanish sword hilts is also well represented.

I have heard of the modern reproductions of the M1728 Spanish 'bilbo' but not of any particular line of same with these type hilts. The espada ancha (machete) of Mexico seems to have remained still in use in degree by charros there well into 20th century so modern versions seem to be around.

[Jim McDougall]

While this discussion ended as often the case with more questions than answers, it remains very much a mystery to me. The interesting suggestion of the similarity of the blade on this example (OP) to examples made in Solingen by Alex Coppel for Brazilian swords in 19th c. presented some rather disappointing potential.
More research into the Coppel 'brand' reveals the name occurred from 1821-1976, but the more modern, into 20th cent mostly bayonets.

The note of the elliptical center fuller which is hollowed does resemble the blades of the M1853 and 1882-85 cavalry swords, however these have a notable ridge from the terminus of the fuller to point.

With this example that does not seem the case. The blade is entirely unmarked and aging seems commensurate with sword overall.

With this hilt, the conundrum continues. With the illustration (Reid, 1976) showing a Spanish sword with a blade marked CORRIENTES is most interesting. Corrientes made blades in Toledo/Madrid until his death 1733.
This form hilt of course corresponds to the Maghrebi 'nimchas' of latter 17th c. which in turn seem to reflect earlier Italian hilt features.

Notable as well is that the line drawing in Reid (op. cit.) of this sword includes the curious feature of the NOTCH in the blade, an anomaly which seems to have been a limited convention on Austrian swords of the 18th c. (Wagner, 1967). Like Wagner, Reid apparently thought this curious feature was worthy of inclusion in his drawing.

With these notes pertaining to the character of my example (OP), it would seem that the hilt is considerably older than the blade. However the styling (such as striated shell guard) seems to favor earlier conventions favored in the Iberian sphere.

In the shellguard 'cutlasses' attributed to Brazilian context, they have the same langet protrusion as this one, again supporting Brazilian and these regions as a source for the hilts. Further, the Cuban machete/sword known as guanabacoa (for city near Havana) are known with these kinds of shell hilts with striation.

I would suspect the hilt on my example may be from these regions, probably Brazil, from 18th century, possibly mid to latter, and might be progenitor of the shell guard forms of early into latter 19th c. These full shell hilts seem to often carry British blades from 1814-20s, which likely derived from prevalent trade in South Seas (Caribbean)in those times.

Portuguese presence in Brazil was of course long established, and dramatically increased with Napoleon invading Portugal in 1807, with Prince Regent Dom Joao (later King John (Joao VI) establishing seat of Portuguese government there. As British allies, the number of British blades in Brazil as in Carribean was part of the commerce.

The machetes we have long termed 'Berber' which were actually from Cuba and Dominican Republic, seem to have often had old British M1796 light cavalry blades invariably reprofiled at the tip.

[urbanspaceman]

Hey Jim, I got lost about two sentences down.
I see you are revisiting after much lengthy pondering, which is exactly what I have been doing. Keep it up, time often lends fresh perspectives, it did with me.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Keith! I appreciate the support as always, and honestly dont expect much with my loquacious soliloquys, but I write them anyway. It is indeed lengthy pondering, and my writing things out is simply the assembling of hours, days, weeks of intense research and my way of trying to comprehend it all.

I know you totally relate as your field of specialty on Shotley Bridge and English sword making with the mysterious grinding wheel machines of the darkest corners of this history is incredibly esoteric. With this its hard for others not as deeply into these things to follow or catch up, and often in our areas there is not the level of interest.
But we keep going as you well point out, often returning to a perplexing conundrum after time, perspectives appear that might have been clouded before. Also new information and resources surface, especially as readers out there finally come forth.
Hopefully its all the constructive understanding shared to the benefit of others who share our interests.

[Jim McDougall]

The more I look at the striated designs on these shell guards, as well as on the perpendicular guard on this example makes me think they are from the latter 18th century (as in this example) but in first half 19th century with the larger bowl styles. Perhaps the distinct 'bowl' form was toward 'cutlasses' as this type of hand protection was notably present in sea going edged weapons.

It seems that the 'guanabacoa' (near Havana) Cuban forms of 'machete' had quite a range of variation of course, and some had these striated designs on guards. The 'shell' guard was of course popular in Spanish hilt designs as the cockle shell was significant in Spanish material culture.

While this example has been perplexing with all these variables, it is good to see it with new perspectives.

The blade remains a mystery......but I dont think its British...perhaps a 'blank' ? from Germany, but the elliptical fuller seems atypical for earlier than 19th c.

[Jim McDougall]

Looking further at the guard orientation on this, the seemingly popular striations on the guard reflect the Spanish colonial influence, while it appears possible that British officers spadroons (c.1780s) with these kinds of guards might have also been in mind. Attached is 'five Ball' hilt design of 1780s which became well established, note the orientation of the crossguard. While this design was most popular, the extended guard often had other designs, mostly openwork vegetal motif, hearts and other elements. It would not seem far fetched that this style using the striations of shell guards would be out of place in latter 18th century Spanish context while aligned with the British influence. Also, we know the shell guard forms became popular in Brazil, and that in latter 18th into 19th the Portuguese and British were allied.

As far as I have known, in the nearly 30 years Ive owned this, there are no like examples. As noted, the hilt styling reflects the familiar 'hand nock' near pommel as well known in nimchas of North Africa, as well as the hilts of the shell guard espada (cutlasses?) of South America and Gulf colonies.

It is also worthy of note that the inside langet of this example and the shell guard versions are shared, a feature not seen on other colonial swords of this period, perhaps further aligning this example with the shell guard cutlasses.