Arabic insription on yataghan - translation requested

eftihis · 21st July 2006, 04:42 PM

Hi Matej,
I find it interesting that you believe the fittings are "lower quality greek work between 1880-1920" I would like to know more if you can elaborate with more details, what are the characteristics that make you believe that?

Valjhun · 21st July 2006, 05:42 PM

Well Eftihis,

I'm a little bit suprised by such question from you. In lack of a quality book on yatagans I would say that mine statement is a simple deduction upon observing various yatagans from auction houses, ebay listnings and museums. Thoose pices I'm referring to, usually have blades of lower quality with typical engravings consisting of flowers, hearts with arrows, inscriptions in greek and dates from the late 19th century to 1930. Sometimes thoose pieces are reffered as "sailor's yataghan". The monster head on the is a good sign too. It was never been done in former yugoslavia territories such way. Not a epirus masterpiece certainly, but still greek workmaship, I guess. One thing is for sure, it is not a formey yugoslavia piece. You are a far greater expert when it comes to Greece, can you comment that?

However, I'm not totaly excluding the statement from Erlikhan. Erli, can you post some pictures of your friends work?

eftihis · 22nd July 2006, 11:23 PM

First let me say, that if Erlikhan has right and the mounts are new, then this is maybe the reason that the inscription doesnt make sence! The person that "made up" the sword could have added an inscription to give it more value. If it was made today, then he does not know the old ottoman script, and he does not expect anybody to read it either, so he just copied characters without any order, therefore we have no meaning! Just an hypothesis.

Regarding "greek made" work i honestly cannot set a rule, that is why i am asking. In what is today Greece there have been distinctive styles of silverwork like the ones from Crete and Epirus, but these were of a particulary high level.

The good blades were mostly imported, but you can find decent ones made in Greece, but never damascus ones.
I agree with the decoration on blades you observe, and of course where there is a Greek inscription the origin is obvious.

But for the fittings, why a low end work would be Greek? If we say that "low end" work is related with the society changes and industrialisation (modern times force artisans to work fast with less attention to detail),during the end of the 19th century and the beggining of 20th, then this is the case for all the Balkan countries and Turkey itself.
What i want to say is that in old times there was great work in Greece and elsewhere, in new times bad work in Greece and elswhere, therefore is more a matter of time than origin.
Also do not forget that during Ottoman times they wher no set borders so half of Epirus is in todays Albania and i better not speak about Macedonia.

Regarding the dragon head on yataghans is something that puzzled me a lot, i think is an influence from baroque style that came from Europe and adopted by Ottomans.
Being from Greece, does not make me expert on Greek items, do not forget that these where made before the time of my grandfather, and i see many examples that i cannot know if they were made localy or imported from somehere else or they are just war booty.
Only on Cretan items i can speak with a higher ammount of certainity.
THats why i am really interested on what you know, and its great if you can say that it was sure not made in Formers Yugoslav territories.

ariel · 23rd July 2006, 01:47 AM

I think we are in the " eats shoots and leaves" territory

" Lower quality Greek work" can be interpreted as " lower quality, ie Greek, work " or "lower quality work that happens to come from Greece" .
I am sure Valjhun meant the latter (and that is how I red it): it has Greek motives but this particular specimen is not a museum masterpiece. No condescension toward Greek workmanship in general was intended.
Would be a pity if a grammatical ambiguity caused bad feelings between the two of you.
As to the inscription... I had a Yataghan with a bizarre inscription that nobody could read. Then somebody just read it as a crude script of Osmanli.
Don't despair, somebody will help. I do not believe for a second this is a mumbo-jumbo.

Valjhun · 24th July 2006, 06:26 PM

Well said SenSei!

Than you for your evaluations and precious info, Eftihis.

As I said, not an Epirus masterpiece....

Zifir · 25th July 2006, 08:05 PM

http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=758

If you look at the second picture from the bottom, these are the very same words(only excluding the last word) that your yatagan has. I still believe this is not turkish, but who knows.

When I was looking at several different yatagans, a question occured to me that why some yatagan scabbards had a fish-head like bottoms and others don't? what was the significance?

eftihis · 26th July 2006, 03:22 PM

Hallo Zifir,
I think that the dragon/dolphin/snake/fish head (many interpretations) came to turkish art as a loan from european baroque,during the 18th century.
If you see the first known bichaq daggers from Buchara in central asia, and all the turkish weapons captured during the siege of Vienna, none has a dragon finial on its scabbard.
When the fashion for the dragon head came, maybe some areas liked it more, maybe others less. Also some artist would stay with the old design as always happens.

21st July 2006, 05:42 PM	#2
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Well Eftihis, I'm a little bit suprised by such question from you. In lack of a quality book on yatagans I would say that mine statement is a simple deduction upon observing various yatagans from auction houses, ebay listnings and museums. Thoose pices I'm referring to, usually have blades of lower quality with typical engravings consisting of flowers, hearts with arrows, inscriptions in greek and dates from the late 19th century to 1930. Sometimes thoose pieces are reffered as "sailor's yataghan". The monster head on the is a good sign too. It was never been done in former yugoslavia territories such way. Not a epirus masterpiece certainly, but still greek workmaship, I guess. One thing is for sure, it is not a formey yugoslavia piece. You are a far greater expert when it comes to Greece, can you comment that? However, I'm not totaly excluding the statement from Erlikhan. Erli, can you post some pictures of your friends work? Last edited by Valjhun; 21st July 2006 at 06:29 PM.

24th July 2006, 06:26 PM	#5
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Well said SenSei! Than you for your evaluations and precious info, Eftihis. As I said, not an Epirus masterpiece.... Last edited by Valjhun; 24th July 2006 at 08:02 PM.

25th July 2006, 08:05 PM	#6
Zifir Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Istanbul Posts: 228	http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=758 If you look at the second picture from the bottom, these are the very same words(only excluding the last word) that your yatagan has. I still believe this is not turkish, but who knows. When I was looking at several different yatagans, a question occured to me that why some yatagan scabbards had a fish-head like bottoms and others don't? what was the significance? Last edited by Zifir; 25th July 2006 at 08:21 PM.

21st July 2006, 04:42 PM	#1
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 511	Hi Matej, I find it interesting that you believe the fittings are "lower quality greek work between 1880-1920" I would like to know more if you can elaborate with more details, what are the characteristics that make you believe that?

22nd July 2006, 11:23 PM	#3
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 511	First let me say, that if Erlikhan has right and the mounts are new, then this is maybe the reason that the inscription doesnt make sence! The person that "made up" the sword could have added an inscription to give it more value. If it was made today, then he does not know the old ottoman script, and he does not expect anybody to read it either, so he just copied characters without any order, therefore we have no meaning! Just an hypothesis. Regarding "greek made" work i honestly cannot set a rule, that is why i am asking. In what is today Greece there have been distinctive styles of silverwork like the ones from Crete and Epirus, but these were of a particulary high level. The good blades were mostly imported, but you can find decent ones made in Greece, but never damascus ones. I agree with the decoration on blades you observe, and of course where there is a Greek inscription the origin is obvious. But for the fittings, why a low end work would be Greek? If we say that "low end" work is related with the society changes and industrialisation (modern times force artisans to work fast with less attention to detail),during the end of the 19th century and the beggining of 20th, then this is the case for all the Balkan countries and Turkey itself. What i want to say is that in old times there was great work in Greece and elsewhere, in new times bad work in Greece and elswhere, therefore is more a matter of time than origin. Also do not forget that during Ottoman times they wher no set borders so half of Epirus is in todays Albania and i better not speak about Macedonia. Regarding the dragon head on yataghans is something that puzzled me a lot, i think is an influence from baroque style that came from Europe and adopted by Ottomans. Being from Greece, does not make me expert on Greek items, do not forget that these where made before the time of my grandfather, and i see many examples that i cannot know if they were made localy or imported from somehere else or they are just war booty. Only on Cretan items i can speak with a higher ammount of certainity. THats why i am really interested on what you know, and its great if you can say that it was sure not made in Formers Yugoslav territories.

23rd July 2006, 01:47 AM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I think we are in the " eats shoots and leaves" territory " Lower quality Greek work" can be interpreted as " lower quality, ie Greek, work " or "lower quality work that happens to come from Greece" . I am sure Valjhun meant the latter (and that is how I red it): it has Greek motives but this particular specimen is not a museum masterpiece. No condescension toward Greek workmanship in general was intended. Would be a pity if a grammatical ambiguity caused bad feelings between the two of you. As to the inscription... I had a Yataghan with a bizarre inscription that nobody could read. Then somebody just read it as a crude script of Osmanli. Don't despair, somebody will help. I do not believe for a second this is a mumbo-jumbo.

26th July 2006, 03:22 PM	#7
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 511	Hallo Zifir, I think that the dragon/dolphin/snake/fish head (many interpretations) came to turkish art as a loan from european baroque,during the 18th century. If you see the first known bichaq daggers from Buchara in central asia, and all the turkish weapons captured during the siege of Vienna, none has a dragon finial on its scabbard. When the fashion for the dragon head came, maybe some areas liked it more, maybe others less. Also some artist would stay with the old design as always happens.