New Purchase: A tumbok lada

Interested Party · 28th April 2025, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

....what I believe I am looking at is a relatively recent knife & scabbard, but with an old ivory hilt, I also believe that I am looking at an item of better than usual quality.

Mr. Maisey I am not questioning your assessment, but I do have a question on what about the blade itself makes it look recent. What about the blades gives it away? Is it the profile or that the cleaning has not caused enough serrations in the blades as the acid ate away at the softer layers? Is it as recent as the sheath? For the blade what is recent?

The shrubbery on the blade and sheath complement each other whether or not they were made at similar times. To me the designs in the tendril and floral patterns seem to show what Van der Hoop in Indonesian Ornamental Design insinuated was a Chinese influence. The tendrils change from panel to panel. Some show clouds. The tumpals are interesting in that the tendrils almost become flames. On one side of the blades the tendrils are almost anthropomorphic. Hugh I really like the inlay on the blade.

Thanks for posting
-IP

A. G. Maisey · Yesterday, 12:37 AM

I guess that the most accurate answer to this is "experience":- if somebody has seen literally thousands of blades of various types with this style of construction, they usually form an opinion almost instantly on the perceived age. With some things this becomes more difficult, most especially from photos, & I doubt that it would be possible to set forth any sort of formula that could guide age assessment, but there are tells that can help to form an opinion.

With this item under discussion we have a knife that is in absolutely perfect condition, it has been subjected to an aging process, but only a very light aging process; the colour of the materials is in accordance with what we expect from a more recent blade; the cutting edge shows no erosion at all, whilst the form is true to original, there does not appear to have been any blade renovation. Based upon what can be seen in the photo this blade could be anywhere between 150 years old & 3 days old, this type of thing is still made today. In the hand it might be possible to get a tighter fix on age, from a photo this not possible.

In short, it looks very recent.

The gold work is a generic design that is quite common across Indonesia, the triangles are what we call "tumpal" --- it might be of interest to research this motif, it is important --- the tendrils and other design elements occur again & again across many regions.

Yes, there is certainly a lot of Chinese influence in the Archipelago, a very great deal of Chinese influence in Jawa, Bali, Sumatera.

This influence occurred in multiple ways, in many places, at all levels of society and over a very long period of time. However, the evidence of this influence is now well & truly integrated into the societies concerned.

To try to identify what is of Chinese origin, & what is of some other origin is perhaps a slightly misleading exercise at this point in time. What happens in modern Indonesia, and in all of the places that are now Indonesia but were previously regarded as separate but related entities, was & is that the, for example, Javanese society accepts, or has accepted, the outside input, assimilates it, modifies it to harmonise with the existing societal elements, and makes it Javanese, or Balinese, or whatever.

This applies in many fields, including art.

The concept of "recent" varies and is decidedly subjective, it depends upon many factors, but with items such as this knife it can be understood as an opinion that the blade & the scabbard are not old, only the handle shows evidence of age. This of course generates the question of what "old" means, & that is again a subjective matter. I guess it all comes back to having a good understanding of the related field of knowledge.

For example, if we consider the Javanese keris, most Javanese keris authorities regard keris made from the time of the second kingdom of Mataram through to now to be "new" keris. So, in this case that "recent" idea might be thought of as extending over several hundred years, but is a 300 year old keris "recent" as well as "new" , I rather think not, so this comes down to an expert appraisal of the actual item concerned:- is it 3 years old or 300 years old? Like many other skills, appraisal of keris & other SE Asian blades requires time & experience to learn & it cannot be turned into a formula that can be applied by anybody who has not had the requisite training.

The gold work is not inlay, it is kinatah, a form of ornamentation that can be applied in several ways, but is similar in appearance to Indian koftgari work.

Interested Party · Yesterday, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The gold work is a generic design that is quite common across Indonesia, the triangles are what we call "tumpal" --- it might be of interest to research this motif, it is important --- the tendrils and other design elements occur again & again across many regions.

The gold work is not inlay, it is kinatah, a form of ornamentation that can be applied in several ways, but is similar in appearance to Indian koftgari work.

Thank you for a well thought out reply, as always. I will double back on my tumpal research, start over, reassess, and try to understand more. I know that they are old from before the Hindu conquest and later came sometimes to symbolize lotus petals with different themes incorporated into the panels. It seems that sometimes in the Sumatran context they had flames in the petals, and I have always wondered about that.

I misidentified the gold work. I thought that there were keyed channels cut under the work similar to Moro inlay.

A. G. Maisey · Today, 09:45 AM

We call that pyramid form a "tumpal" motif, but really, it is only a tumpal motif when it is used in a border, especially in a border on fabric.

Batik probably came to Jawa & other parts of the Indonesian Archipelago in about the 16th century, and from India. However the pyramid form motif was used in Jawa before that, I'm not certain of how far back its use goes, but it can be found in Majapahit work.

The pyramid form itself can be found in other applications, such as the mound of rice used in slametan & other offerings, and in these other applications it should be thought of as a representation of the meru, which itself is a representation of Mount Kailash, the center of the world, the center of the cosmos and the abode of Siwa.

This pyramid form also relates to the Gunungan, which again is a holy mountain motif, that represents the home of the ancestors whilst waiting for rebirth, & the abode of Siwa. The Gunungan was present in Majapahit.

Then, with the Gunungan, we have a representation of the Tree of Life, when we think of the Gunungan as the Tree of Life, its name becomes "Kayon", the word "Kayon" comes from the root word "Kayu", which means "wood", & of course, trees produce wood.

This whole subject really deserves the attention of an interested academic to produce a nice useful paper. It would not be all that hard to write, all the related info is out there, it only needs to be assembled in one place. All it needs is somebody with the time & sufficient interest to do the job.

Sumukti Sumastuti wrote a paper on the Gunungan, & there is some good information in that, but the entire subject is much broader than that which is covered in her paper.

Yesterday, 12:37 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	I guess that the most accurate answer to this is "experience":- if somebody has seen literally thousands of blades of various types with this style of construction, they usually form an opinion almost instantly on the perceived age. With some things this becomes more difficult, most especially from photos, & I doubt that it would be possible to set forth any sort of formula that could guide age assessment, but there are tells that can help to form an opinion. With this item under discussion we have a knife that is in absolutely perfect condition, it has been subjected to an aging process, but only a very light aging process; the colour of the materials is in accordance with what we expect from a more recent blade; the cutting edge shows no erosion at all, whilst the form is true to original, there does not appear to have been any blade renovation. Based upon what can be seen in the photo this blade could be anywhere between 150 years old & 3 days old, this type of thing is still made today. In the hand it might be possible to get a tighter fix on age, from a photo this not possible. In short, it looks very recent. The gold work is a generic design that is quite common across Indonesia, the triangles are what we call "tumpal" --- it might be of interest to research this motif, it is important --- the tendrils and other design elements occur again & again across many regions. Yes, there is certainly a lot of Chinese influence in the Archipelago, a very great deal of Chinese influence in Jawa, Bali, Sumatera. This influence occurred in multiple ways, in many places, at all levels of society and over a very long period of time. However, the evidence of this influence is now well & truly integrated into the societies concerned. To try to identify what is of Chinese origin, & what is of some other origin is perhaps a slightly misleading exercise at this point in time. What happens in modern Indonesia, and in all of the places that are now Indonesia but were previously regarded as separate but related entities, was & is that the, for example, Javanese society accepts, or has accepted, the outside input, assimilates it, modifies it to harmonise with the existing societal elements, and makes it Javanese, or Balinese, or whatever. This applies in many fields, including art. The concept of "recent" varies and is decidedly subjective, it depends upon many factors, but with items such as this knife it can be understood as an opinion that the blade & the scabbard are not old, only the handle shows evidence of age. This of course generates the question of what "old" means, & that is again a subjective matter. I guess it all comes back to having a good understanding of the related field of knowledge. For example, if we consider the Javanese keris, most Javanese keris authorities regard keris made from the time of the second kingdom of Mataram through to now to be "new" keris. So, in this case that "recent" idea might be thought of as extending over several hundred years, but is a 300 year old keris "recent" as well as "new" , I rather think not, so this comes down to an expert appraisal of the actual item concerned:- is it 3 years old or 300 years old? Like many other skills, appraisal of keris & other SE Asian blades requires time & experience to learn & it cannot be turned into a formula that can be applied by anybody who has not had the requisite training. The gold work is not inlay, it is kinatah, a form of ornamentation that can be applied in several ways, but is similar in appearance to Indian koftgari work.

Today, 09:45 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	We call that pyramid form a "tumpal" motif, but really, it is only a tumpal motif when it is used in a border, especially in a border on fabric. Batik probably came to Jawa & other parts of the Indonesian Archipelago in about the 16th century, and from India. However the pyramid form motif was used in Jawa before that, I'm not certain of how far back its use goes, but it can be found in Majapahit work. The pyramid form itself can be found in other applications, such as the mound of rice used in slametan & other offerings, and in these other applications it should be thought of as a representation of the meru, which itself is a representation of Mount Kailash, the center of the world, the center of the cosmos and the abode of Siwa. This pyramid form also relates to the Gunungan, which again is a holy mountain motif, that represents the home of the ancestors whilst waiting for rebirth, & the abode of Siwa. The Gunungan was present in Majapahit. Then, with the Gunungan, we have a representation of the Tree of Life, when we think of the Gunungan as the Tree of Life, its name becomes "Kayon", the word "Kayon" comes from the root word "Kayu", which means "wood", & of course, trees produce wood. This whole subject really deserves the attention of an interested academic to produce a nice useful paper. It would not be all that hard to write, all the related info is out there, it only needs to be assembled in one place. All it needs is somebody with the time & sufficient interest to do the job. Sumukti Sumastuti wrote a paper on the Gunungan, & there is some good information in that, but the entire subject is much broader than that which is covered in her paper.