A koummya- and contexts

[werecow]

Originally Posted by Changdao

I don't doubt they were used in combat. Thrusts could be problematic due to the risks of the hand sliding up the blade,

I doubt that. The flyssa's step between the blade and grip is no smaller than, say, the one for an Indonesian rencong, which is certainly a thrusting weapon. And they have an absolutely terrifying needle point that rivals any smallsword. I would be very surprised if these were not used for thrusting.

[Jim McDougall]

Pertinax, absolutely amazing! and thank you so much for taking the time to translate and compile this valuable information!

So it seems clear that even weapons which 'seem' inviable as combat weapons according to western standards, in actuality were indeed used and effectively.
To the koummya question, it does appear that even in the case of the absence of guard projections on the hilt (=vestigial quillons) these daggers remain usable combatively.

This truly is wonderful insight into the actual use of the flyssa, and in the study I did on them many years ago, the major block was that these resources were in French. Clearly I should have had them translated but in those days there were not as many such options.

I would suppose then on the koummya, that the 'souvenir' category would apply to those with less than substantial blades, and 'flimsier' character, as would be expected with many ethnographic forms in such character.

[Pertinax]

Thanks to Jim McDougall for his kind words.

In conclusion.

К. Lacoste:

Decadence.

Perfectly adapted to use, the fleece managed to survive until the French conquest. But from 1850 onwards, it no longer had a reason to exist. Whereas it was once the object of jealous care, it is now often remade to be used as a knife for cutting up meat and slaughtering.

The monopoly of the Iflisen no longer exists. But a new clientele has arrived: the "travelers" of yesteryear, today's tourists, who have shown great love for such an original weapon. To satisfy this new clientele, it was necessary to get closer to the tourist routes. The production methods have changed: from the artisanal plan, they have moved to the "manufacturing" stage, often even working "wholesale", on behalf of dealers from Algeria.

Finally, the weapon itself has adapted to its new use. The amateur is little concerned with the functional properties of the weapon. He likes above all the "local color", the "decorativeness". Nowadays, the fleece industry is degenerating as a function of the disappearance of need, according to a threefold process: degradation of the nature of the weapon itself, transformation of the methods of work, liquidation of the production center, transfer of the production center.

Rene Maunier «La Construction Collective de la Maison en Kabylie», Paris, Institut d’ethnologie, 1926

- However, I saw in Taourirt-Mimoun, in the Beni-Yenni tribe, a recently founded carpentry workshop, which is a kind of factory in the true sense of the word. They make sabres, wooden trays and frames for tourists. In a large new room, about ten by five meters, about ten workers have gathered. To make the sabres, called fleeces, one draws, another cuts the wood, a third inlays with copper wires, another fixes the blades. There is one who only forges. Others work as managers, others on patterns. Thus, there is specialization not only in operations, but also in production. And this is the result of the opening of the European market to the Kabyle industry.

I repeat, K. Lacoste collected all the information on fleece and Kabila, my opinion is that, unfortunately, we will not learn anything new.

[Ian]

Pertinax, thank you for sharing your understanding of the flyssa and the Kabyle people so clearly here. You have obviously spent a lot of time researching those subjects. While it is disappointing to hear that little information exists about the origins of this weapon, your experience has helped define the limits of what is available. That's important to know.


Regards, Ian

[RobT]

Jim McDougall,
Your point about weapons being worn as status and fashion can’t be overemphasized. For anyone of the culture, the sumptuousness of man’s sidearm allowed the viewer to get a good idea of the wearer’s wealth and power. This display could actually act as a deterrent to physical conflict as, no matter how justified, an attack on a rich individual by a less affluent person put not only the assailant at grave risk of retaliation by all the forces that wealth can summon but also placed the attacker’s family in danger of the same.
An example of this status/authority is a koummya in my collection with a chapeau de gendarme pommel. The blade is noticeably larger than average and the sheath is a good bit larger than average but the pommel measures 8” (20.32cm) across and is about 5” (12.7cm) high. Even though the blade is a very good one, I can’t imagine effectively using a dagger with a pommel the size of a luncheon plate. The only thing I can think of is this ensemble was designed and worn as a very visible symbol of authority.

Changdao,
I won’t address the use or utility of the sword size flyssa other than to point out that the base of the blade extends far below the hilt and that would be enough to stop the user’s hand from traveling up the blade on the thrust. This feature on the dagger size flyssa makes them well suited for thrusting. Any mechanism that prevents the hand from going up the blade will do. It doesn’t have to be a guard. For example, the hilt ring that is designed to fit between the middle and ring fingers on a khukri will work.
I have read that the reason the khyber knife is called a knife was because it was used to stab overhand with a pugio grip (aka ice pick grip or reverse grip). I have also seen a period drawing showing an Afghan fighter holding a khyber knife in this manner while attacking a British trooper. In any event, the khyber knife with its sharp, quick tip is ideally designed for thrusting and stabbing. Not only does the heel of blade extend far below the hilt, the heel is slightly concave thus making it impossible for the user’s hand to slide up the blade on the thrust. In addition to this, the hilt ferrule has an extension that runs down the heel of the blade and forms a cushion for the hand. Whatever British reports you have read notwithstanding, I find it impossible to believe a knife so carefully designed for thrusting and stabbing wasn’t used that way at least some of the time.

Sincerely,
RobT

[Rick]

I would think one would be hard put to sever a limb with a blow from a fleece.
Form follows function, I would think in this case.
Since we are in the same neighborhood, and this thread started out with the Koummya, are there any thoughts to be had on the Genoui, the straight bladed dagger from this same culture?

[Pertinax]

[QUOTE=Rick;296768]I would think one would be hard put to sever a limb with a blow from a fleece.
Form follows function, I would think in this case.

The Kabyles had the habit of cutting off the heads of captured and defeated enemies. This tradition goes back to ancient times.

Gaius Sallust Crispa "Jugurtha War", late 40s BC:

- The Numidians, following their orders, brought his head (from Hiempsal) to Jugurtha.

Lapene describes:

- Revenge among the Arabs, especially among the Kabaileans, is not considered complete, and the bloody mission is not accomplished, unless the head of the enemy is thrown at the feet of his rival.

- This habit of crime makes them cruel. They are even among themselves, from tribe to tribe, merciless enemies. If a Frenchman falls into their hands, they kill him on the spot, committing all sorts of atrocities on his corpse. They shed blood as if from necessity, and one might say, with inexpressible pleasure. Women share these feelings, and they tear men to pieces.

- There is nothing more terrible than the fate that befalls ships, no matter what their flag, when in danger or shipwrecked on an inhospitable coast. First the men are dragged ashore in the delusive hope of helping them, then they are actually thrown upon, the cargo is plundered, the ship is destroyed, the throats of the crew are cut. Here the most influential, apparently the calmest or the wisest leaders set an example of black ferocity. - They rush with mad fury upon a soldier, a wounded officer, who, unable to defend himself, becomes an easy prey. We have seen how, in particular, during the retreat at Medea, they pounced like vultures upon soldiers, officers, who were struck down and fought hand to hand with the escort and seized their victim. They show no quarter to a living enemy who remains in their hands. They beat him with unimaginable violence, maimed him, tore him to pieces, and finally cut off his head. They rush with the same fury at a man who falls mortally wounded, attack his corpse, maim it and behead him. Indulging in such horrors, they believe that they have earned good from God and their country. They carry off the heads like so many trophies, display them with fierce joy and narrate with an accent all the circumstances of the battle. - To carry a dead man from the battlefield is a religious duty. This protects him from being beheaded, otherwise how could an angel seize him and carry him to Paradise with the help of the only tuft of hair (Ketaya) provided for this purpose on his shaved head. Thus, near the corpse of a fallen man, there is always a hand-to-hand fight and a fierce struggle to save the body from the adversaries, and triumph is bought only by new deaths.

[Pertinax]

Originally Posted by RobT

Jim McDougall,

An example of this status/authority is a koummya in my collection with a chapeau de gendarme pommel. The blade is noticeably larger than average and the sheath is a good bit larger than average but the pommel measures 8” (20.32cm) across and is about 5” (12.7cm) high. Even though the blade is a very good one, I can’t imagine effectively using a dagger with a pommel the size of a luncheon plate. The only thing I can think of is this ensemble was designed and worn as a very visible symbol of authority.


Sincerely,
RobT

The biggest and heaviest kummiya I've ever come across. A souvenir, of course.
Length in sheath - 440 mm, length without sheath - 425 mm, blade length - 216 mm, width - 54 mm, thickness - 3 mm, weight - 1568 g