Can you help …..?

A. G. Maisey · 12th March 2025, 04:47 AM

Yes Ian, that's better than I was able to get, & that line of separation was one of the things i was looking for. However, I really would need a full length photo to have any chance of making any sort of possibly useful comment.

Gustav · 12th March 2025, 07:33 AM

Well, this is Greneng of a Keris, which was mentioned in an inventory for the first time in 1607. We most likely are looking at a 16th cent. Keris.

Todays "experts", seeing such blade, yell in one voice "Banten!". Yesterdays experts yelled "Bali".

A. G. Maisey · 12th March 2025, 09:02 AM

To a degree I do agree with you Gustav, there are elements of similarity in the greneng posted & in Jensen's photos of keris attributed to Banten, in fact, Jensen was the reference I looked at after Haryoguritno, but the variations in execution do not permit me to name this posted greneng as Banten.

I might be wrong, or at least, too demanding, but for me, this posted greneng is still outside the Banten matrix.

Perhaps in the hand, it might be more convincing.

Gustav · 12th March 2025, 10:15 AM

It is not featured in Jensens book, I guess it is in Krisdisk, chapter Bali, I cannot check at the moment. Here an even smaller picture of the entire Keris.

A. G. Maisey · 12th March 2025, 12:31 PM

Agreed, similar, but from what i am able to see in these tiny images, I simply cannot put Amuk's photo into the same box as the keris in your image, Gustav, nor the Jensen Banten images.

I read Amuk's request as a request to point him in the direction of the classification of keris that had a particular style of greneng, and I cannot do that from such a tiny image, when we look at a greneng, & some other keris characteristics, we look at very particular detail, and a small, poor image just does not give the required detail. Still if Amuk is only looking for similarity, then maybe Banten could be sufficient for him.

Banten of course is Sunda, so as I said in an earlier post, we need to start thinking in a different direction.

Ultimately it all comes down to the difficulty of only seeing something as a picture, in the hand we can often form a different opinion.

Gustav · 12th March 2025, 12:33 PM

Alan, this is the same Keris.

Sajen · 12th March 2025, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

Todays "experts", seeing such blade, yell in one voice "Banten!". Yesterdays experts yelled "Bali".

Sajen · 12th March 2025, 04:49 PM

Alan, load down the picture and zoom it.

Regards,
Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 12th March 2025, 09:06 PM

Thanks Detlef, I have already done that, plus an attempt to improve through Photoshop, but the original pic is only 72X72dpi, it is simply not big enough nor good enough to let me see what I would like to see, & I don't much like guessing.

In any case, Amuk did ask for "similiar" & I think Gustav has given him this, I was thinking Jawa, & Banten is not Land of Jawa, which is what the whole tangguh system is based on. I was being too demanding.

I'm just back from a month in Jawa/Bali, & my mind is still using standards as they apply there --- at least amongst the people I associate with.

Gustav · 12th March 2025, 09:18 PM

Not just similar, the same. By the way in Jensens Krisdisk it's in chapter North-East Java, snd as I understand it, he thinks it could possibly be from late Majapahit or the surviving hinduistic part of East Java in 16th cent.

A. G. Maisey · 13th March 2025, 12:01 AM

I agree Gustav, the same.

You have done a much better job than I did of producing reasonably readable images.

I would very much prefer to leave Karsten Jensen's opinions out of any discussion on blade origin, I do accept that his system of classification has value where the objective is to form an opinion on the entire keris including the dress, but that system is in total variance to my own training & experience and is not in any way able to be aligned with Javanese standards.

In respect of the greneng under discussion, I feel that this general form of greneng would be found to occur principally in keris that would attract a Banten classification rather than any other, & Banten is not Jawa.

The Solonese system of classification, does not include Banten as a recognised classification, & this is true of all other classifications that are now recognised, the reason being that when the Solonese system was developed, only truly Javanese keris were recognised as being valid instruments for storage of wealth.

The newly recognised classifications have been developed by collectors for a very different set of reasons than were applied in development of the original classifications.

In respect of the greneng under discussion, & in consideration of the much improved images that you have presented, I am of the opinion that Amuk's greneng can be accepted as belonging to the school of Banten, which places it in Sunda.

However, although this greneng might be able to be given a Banten classification, it is not the only greneng form that can be found on keris that can be given a Banten classification. So if Amuk is looking for a keris of the type that might carry this greneng form, perhaps he needs to adopt a selection process that includes a number of classification indicators, not only the greneng.

12th March 2025, 07:33 AM	#2
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	Well, this is Greneng of a Keris, which was mentioned in an inventory for the first time in 1607. We most likely are looking at a 16th cent. Keris. Todays "experts", seeing such blade, yell in one voice "Banten!". Yesterdays experts yelled "Bali". Last edited by Gustav; 12th March 2025 at 07:58 AM.

12th March 2025, 10:15 AM	#4
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	It is not featured in Jensens book, I guess it is in Krisdisk, chapter Bali, I cannot check at the moment. Here an even smaller picture of the entire Keris. Attached Images

12th March 2025, 04:49 PM	#8
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,165	Alan, load down the picture and zoom it. Regards, Detlef Attached Images

12th March 2025, 09:18 PM	#10
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	Not just similar, the same. By the way in Jensens Krisdisk it's in chapter North-East Java, snd as I understand it, he thinks it could possibly be from late Majapahit or the surviving hinduistic part of East Java in 16th cent. Attached Images

12th March 2025, 04:47 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Yes Ian, that's better than I was able to get, & that line of separation was one of the things i was looking for. However, I really would need a full length photo to have any chance of making any sort of possibly useful comment.

12th March 2025, 09:02 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	To a degree I do agree with you Gustav, there are elements of similarity in the greneng posted & in Jensen's photos of keris attributed to Banten, in fact, Jensen was the reference I looked at after Haryoguritno, but the variations in execution do not permit me to name this posted greneng as Banten. I might be wrong, or at least, too demanding, but for me, this posted greneng is still outside the Banten matrix. Perhaps in the hand, it might be more convincing.

12th March 2025, 12:31 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Agreed, similar, but from what i am able to see in these tiny images, I simply cannot put Amuk's photo into the same box as the keris in your image, Gustav, nor the Jensen Banten images. I read Amuk's request as a request to point him in the direction of the classification of keris that had a particular style of greneng, and I cannot do that from such a tiny image, when we look at a greneng, & some other keris characteristics, we look at very particular detail, and a small, poor image just does not give the required detail. Still if Amuk is only looking for similarity, then maybe Banten could be sufficient for him. Banten of course is Sunda, so as I said in an earlier post, we need to start thinking in a different direction. Ultimately it all comes down to the difficulty of only seeing something as a picture, in the hand we can often form a different opinion.

12th March 2025, 12:33 PM	#6
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	Alan, this is the same Keris.

12th March 2025, 09:06 PM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Thanks Detlef, I have already done that, plus an attempt to improve through Photoshop, but the original pic is only 72X72dpi, it is simply not big enough nor good enough to let me see what I would like to see, & I don't much like guessing. In any case, Amuk did ask for "similiar" & I think Gustav has given him this, I was thinking Jawa, & Banten is not Land of Jawa, which is what the whole tangguh system is based on. I was being too demanding. I'm just back from a month in Jawa/Bali, & my mind is still using standards as they apply there --- at least amongst the people I associate with.

13th March 2025, 12:01 AM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	I agree Gustav, the same. You have done a much better job than I did of producing reasonably readable images. I would very much prefer to leave Karsten Jensen's opinions out of any discussion on blade origin, I do accept that his system of classification has value where the objective is to form an opinion on the entire keris including the dress, but that system is in total variance to my own training & experience and is not in any way able to be aligned with Javanese standards. In respect of the greneng under discussion, I feel that this general form of greneng would be found to occur principally in keris that would attract a Banten classification rather than any other, & Banten is not Jawa. The Solonese system of classification, does not include Banten as a recognised classification, & this is true of all other classifications that are now recognised, the reason being that when the Solonese system was developed, only truly Javanese keris were recognised as being valid instruments for storage of wealth. The newly recognised classifications have been developed by collectors for a very different set of reasons than were applied in development of the original classifications. In respect of the greneng under discussion, & in consideration of the much improved images that you have presented, I am of the opinion that Amuk's greneng can be accepted as belonging to the school of Banten, which places it in Sunda. However, although this greneng might be able to be given a Banten classification, it is not the only greneng form that can be found on keris that can be given a Banten classification. So if Amuk is looking for a keris of the type that might carry this greneng form, perhaps he needs to adopt a selection process that includes a number of classification indicators, not only the greneng.