Can you help …..?

Amuk Murugul · 12th March 2025, 03:12 AM

Hullo gentlemen,

Thank you for your replies.

Battara: You may be correct, but I haven’t seen it on any Balinese/Lombok keris.

Gustav: You may generally be confirming my suspicions.

Alan: I agree with you to a certain extent.
To date, I have seen several kerises with it (both straight and eloek blades). All were enviably well-executed.(Hence my interest in owning one for further investigation.)
Please accept my sincere apologies; the above picture was the only one allowed me at the time.

Once again, thank you all.

Best,

A. G. Maisey · 12th March 2025, 03:28 AM

Could I request a clarification of what you mean by "some extent"?

Reason being, that when I could not place this greneng from my own memory, I then spent quite a bit of time trying to find a match in books & other published works, but I could not locate a match.

This greneng does display elements of other greneng forms that are pretty much standardised forms, but none of these are a match for the posted photo.

One of the major indicators for a Javanese keris classification (tangguh) is the rondha, & sometimes the complete greneng, if this greneng under discussion does not fit within the matrix then we might need to start thinking along somewhat different lines.

It is regrettable that you were not permitted the opportunity to produce a reasonably clear photograph, I really cannot see important details very well at all on the photo posted. I did massage this photo through Photoshop, but it is such a small image that it pixelated and became even harder to read.

Ian · 12th March 2025, 04:16 AM

Perhaps this view may be a bit more helpful. It is markedly pixelated by one can now see the line of separation between the ganja and the rest of the blade.

Ian · 12th March 2025, 04:18 AM

Because this one deals with the keris, I'm transferring it to the Keris Fprum.

A. G. Maisey · 12th March 2025, 04:47 AM

Yes Ian, that's better than I was able to get, & that line of separation was one of the things i was looking for. However, I really would need a full length photo to have any chance of making any sort of possibly useful comment.

Gustav · 12th March 2025, 07:33 AM

Well, this is Greneng of a Keris, which was mentioned in an inventory for the first time in 1607. We most likely are looking at a 16th cent. Keris.

Todays "experts", seeing such blade, yell in one voice "Banten!". Yesterdays experts yelled "Bali".

A. G. Maisey · 12th March 2025, 09:02 AM

To a degree I do agree with you Gustav, there are elements of similarity in the greneng posted & in Jensen's photos of keris attributed to Banten, in fact, Jensen was the reference I looked at after Haryoguritno, but the variations in execution do not permit me to name this posted greneng as Banten.

I might be wrong, or at least, too demanding, but for me, this posted greneng is still outside the Banten matrix.

Perhaps in the hand, it might be more convincing.

Sajen · 12th March 2025, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

Todays "experts", seeing such blade, yell in one voice "Banten!". Yesterdays experts yelled "Bali".

David · 14th March 2025, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Because this one deals with the keris, I'm transferring it to the Keris Fprum.

Ian, Amuk had already posted a thread on this in the Keris Forum. I am going to combine these threads to include my contribution and avoid future confusion and duplicity.

Ian · 19th March 2025, 08:21 PM

Thanks David. That makes a lot of sense. Double posting does create some confusion.

Amuk Murugul · 30th March 2025, 10:15 PM

Hullo everybody!

My apologies.
I was rather impatient and so left the thread to retire to the skull-cave and consult the chronicles; emerging to launch into an investigative foray into the matter.
Result:
- better-informed
- becoming the delighted owner of sought-after fretwork (see attached); less-than-ideal but adequate for current purpose. (I may post about it at a later date.)
Thank you for all your input.

Ian & David:

The reason that I initially posted in both rooms was that my initial research indicated the presence of the same fretwork as on David’s Bali blade, on blades from diverse areas of The Archipelago (e.g. sundering/kalis, patani, palembang etc. ). Thus, I had hoped to reach a wider audience. Sorry for the inconvenience.

As for the initial picture of the fretwork in post #1, I found it in a past thread; it is better than the picture of the hand-drawn sketch I have. I focused just on the fretwork so as not to detract from my subject of interest.

I now consider this thread closed.

Best,

12th March 2025, 04:16 AM	#3
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,362	Perhaps this view may be a bit more helpful. It is markedly pixelated by one can now see the line of separation between the ganja and the rest of the blade. Attached Images

12th March 2025, 07:33 AM	#6
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	Well, this is Greneng of a Keris, which was mentioned in an inventory for the first time in 1607. We most likely are looking at a 16th cent. Keris. Todays "experts", seeing such blade, yell in one voice "Banten!". Yesterdays experts yelled "Bali". Last edited by Gustav; 12th March 2025 at 07:58 AM.

30th March 2025, 10:15 PM	#11
Amuk Murugul Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Kaboejoetan Galoenggoeng Mélben Posts: 472	Hullo everybody! My apologies. I was rather impatient and so left the thread to retire to the skull-cave and consult the chronicles; emerging to launch into an investigative foray into the matter. Result: - better-informed - becoming the delighted owner of sought-after fretwork (see attached); less-than-ideal but adequate for current purpose. (I may post about it at a later date.) Thank you for all your input. Ian & David: The reason that I initially posted in both rooms was that my initial research indicated the presence of the same fretwork as on David’s Bali blade, on blades from diverse areas of The Archipelago (e.g. sundering/kalis, patani, palembang etc. ). Thus, I had hoped to reach a wider audience. Sorry for the inconvenience. As for the initial picture of the fretwork in post #1, I found it in a past thread; it is better than the picture of the hand-drawn sketch I have. I focused just on the fretwork so as not to detract from my subject of interest. I now consider this thread closed. Best, Attached Images Last edited by Amuk Murugul; 31st March 2025 at 02:10 AM.

12th March 2025, 03:12 AM	#1
Amuk Murugul Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Kaboejoetan Galoenggoeng Mélben Posts: 472	Hullo gentlemen, Thank you for your replies. Battara: You may be correct, but I haven’t seen it on any Balinese/Lombok keris. Gustav: You may generally be confirming my suspicions. Alan: I agree with you to a certain extent. To date, I have seen several kerises with it (both straight and eloek blades). All were enviably well-executed.(Hence my interest in owning one for further investigation.) Please accept my sincere apologies; the above picture was the only one allowed me at the time. Once again, thank you all. Best,

12th March 2025, 03:28 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Could I request a clarification of what you mean by "some extent"? Reason being, that when I could not place this greneng from my own memory, I then spent quite a bit of time trying to find a match in books & other published works, but I could not locate a match. This greneng does display elements of other greneng forms that are pretty much standardised forms, but none of these are a match for the posted photo. One of the major indicators for a Javanese keris classification (tangguh) is the rondha, & sometimes the complete greneng, if this greneng under discussion does not fit within the matrix then we might need to start thinking along somewhat different lines. It is regrettable that you were not permitted the opportunity to produce a reasonably clear photograph, I really cannot see important details very well at all on the photo posted. I did massage this photo through Photoshop, but it is such a small image that it pixelated and became even harder to read.

12th March 2025, 04:18 AM	#4
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,362	Because this one deals with the keris, I'm transferring it to the Keris Fprum.

12th March 2025, 04:47 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Yes Ian, that's better than I was able to get, & that line of separation was one of the things i was looking for. However, I really would need a full length photo to have any chance of making any sort of possibly useful comment.

12th March 2025, 09:02 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	To a degree I do agree with you Gustav, there are elements of similarity in the greneng posted & in Jensen's photos of keris attributed to Banten, in fact, Jensen was the reference I looked at after Haryoguritno, but the variations in execution do not permit me to name this posted greneng as Banten. I might be wrong, or at least, too demanding, but for me, this posted greneng is still outside the Banten matrix. Perhaps in the hand, it might be more convincing.

19th March 2025, 08:21 PM	#10
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,362	Thanks David. That makes a lot of sense. Double posting does create some confusion.