Captain Kidds Treasure 'silver' (?) ingot

Jim McDougall · 11th January 2025, 04:07 PM

Thanks so much guys! Great thoughts and perspective! uh, CC, r
radiation shielding? LOL!!! good one.

Very good points on the uses of lead, one of the key uses obviously in these contexts was ammunition. In most studies of arms I have probed looking for records of arms shipments etc. one of the key commodities was saltpetre for powder.

On that note, mentioning the 'cutting' of commodities by unscrupulous officials was a very real issue. In the Spanish colonies in the 18th-19th c. the use of charcoal on powder was often used for financial gain by these guys, which became so notorious that Mexican powder was regarded nearly useless.

It is a good idea that perhaps this relatively huge ingot was scribed with marks to pose as silver, and IMO very logical thought given these kinds of ploys. The big question is, Kidd is not widely known for the plunder of Spanish ships. However there is an obscure reference of him taking one vessel out of Lima for Spain, and there may have been silver but no detailed references I am aware of.
Other than that, it seems possible that OTHER pirates in this haven in Madagascar might have acquired this sort of 'treasure' (or would be 'silver').
Perhaps even such ingots might have served as decoys on these vessels to detract from actual silver cache?

While I know that lead ballast was indeed produced in ingots, as noted pig iron or stone was more commonly used. There was apparently a notable production of lead ingots for ballast in England often used on Dutch ships as well.
The use of ballast outward voyage, and disposed of in ports of call in place of key cargo seems logical. The lead, as noted, might serve as a usable commodity in these colonial destinations for purposes described.

The DILEMMA here is :
Why has there been no follow up on the disposition of this curious ingot after its 2015 discovery?
Even if not silver, and not definitive proof of finding Kidds "Adventure Galley" (which is still listed as unlocated) it is still a historic artifact.

UNESCO pretty much blasted Clifford for premature announcement and claims to finding Kidd;s ship and ever elusive 'treasure'....with what they showed AFTER testing (which Clifford did not do) was simply lead.
Was this just too embarassing to continue, ? was any further search done in the site?
UNESCO says there was no ship wreckage, only what appears to be pylons or other debris from what may have been a careening dock or structure.

SO WHERE IS THIS BAR NOW? Was it ever tested further? any other items with it? only ONE bar?

I really appreciate you guys answering, and for good ideas. I feel sort of at an impasse here so its good to have your support.

Bob A · 11th January 2025, 06:06 PM

Fraudulent marking was the first thought that came to my mind as well.

As for UNESCO, their summary dismissal of the "ship" as debris is undercut by the fact of the bar and its description.

While I hesitate to ascribe ulterior, even nefarious, motives generally, when stakes are high, character tends to slip a bit.

Rick · 13th January 2025, 02:52 AM

Probably.
I find it amazing that Mr. Clifford neglected to bring a Silver test kit with him on his expedition.

If you find more information Jim, please keep us up to date. You could always try to contact him through the Whydah Museum website.

Have you read the book Walking The Plank by Stephen Kiesling yet?

Jim McDougall · 13th January 2025, 02:55 PM

Bob thank you for answering. The entire case for this being a silver bar and hyped into 'Captain Kidds treasure' seems to be 'on course for the unfortunately sensationalized career of Mr. Clifford.
Rick, I hoped you would come in on this, as for years you have called attention to the character of Clifford and your views were from close personal contact with him in your areas.

I think the use of disguised lead bars as valuable plunder must have been one of those unexplored areas of maritime trade and of course the piracy which becomes part of those contexts.

The nature of the 'ingot' from the Ile St. Marie harbor is first of all, a bit too large and heavy for a silver ingot and from what I can find on the apparently esoteric area of lead ballast bars, this unusual shape concurs somewhat.

The so called markings cut into this bar are 'in the manner' of the assay and control markings on Spanish silver bars, but of course, much cruder and interpretative. Absent are the conventional assay characters and of course the 'bite' marks (chunks for analysis by assayer).

It seems more than irresponsible to announce the locating of the Adventure Galley based on this single bar without proper testing. All I can think of is that the media was already on hand as Clifford had already been in this location seeking the wreck for some time, and they were ready to pounce. Still, Clifford should have cooled things down and followed protocols.
One of the most notable issues with him is the lack of proper archaeological staff on hand to ensure these kinds of protocols.

What I am trying to figure out is what became of this curiously disguised ingot after the year of hooplah in 2015. While clearly not 'treasure' it is still a valuable historic item as it was probably taken by one of the pirate groups who frequented there, and tossed as worthless. That it was found in an area of debris from dock structures rather than wreckage of a vessel seems to support that.

Thank you for the heads up on that book ! Ill check it out

I will see if I can find out more as you suggest, and as always invite any other input from those reading here, it has always been a team effort here.
It seems appropriate that pirate ships so often used ADVENTURE in thier names !!!

It is exactly what they have given us!

Richard G · 18th January 2025, 01:07 PM

Bering in mind we are talking about pirates, not overly renowned for their scruples, I am not the least surprised by the existence of any nefarious markings.
Best wishes
Richard

Jim McDougall · 19th January 2025, 01:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Probably.
I find it amazing that Mr. Clifford neglected to bring a Silver test kit with him on his expedition.

If you find more information Jim, please keep us up to date. You could always try to contact him through the Whydah Museum website.

Have you read the book Walking The Plank by Stephen Kiesling yet?

Thanks for the heads up on this book Rick, despite all the stuff about the huge treasure on the Whydah ('found' in 1984) and the huge caches of silver and gold in chests in the museum, why is there no mention of hordes of treasure found in the wreck? Most of the materials seem to be in huge blocks of concretion, including numbers of loose coins which have been 'worked over the years but no mention anywhere so far of huge blocks of coins,

Rick · 21st January 2025, 08:18 PM

If I recall correctly, the word was that they had not gone deep enough and the the majority was further beneath the sand, which is believable considering the amount of wave action off the 'backside' shoreline that moves so much sand around every year. When I was younger, I surfed this coast for 30 years or so and can attest to the amount of sand that gets moved around during the winter months. The picture below was taken by me from the parking lot at Nauset Light beach which is about 75 feet above sea level after a Winter storm.
Then, when the weather is suitable for diving on the wreck we have a high White Shark count that probably rivals South Africa's these days, this causes the need for a few extra divers to watch out for them and work stops until they have departed the area. Divers in black wetsuits look very much like their favorite food, Seals.

Jim McDougall · 22nd January 2025, 07:46 PM

Thanks Rick, that makes good sense, and I can understand how much sand is moved about over virtually centuries. If I understand correctly the biggest problem in navigating these waters through inlets and ever changing shoals is those kinds of dynamics.

What I wonder is, was there only one rather large 'ingot' found? and despite the negative result with the actual analysis revealing lead, what became of it? It is still historic.
What has become of Clifford? Online entries stop after 2016. If I am right he seems focused on the Santa Maria ?

Rick · 23rd January 2025, 10:56 PM

He's still searching for the Santa Maria, Jim. The powers that be in the world of shipwreck archeology have deemed that the first discovery was not the Santa Maria.

13th January 2025, 02:52 AM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Just Too Embarrassing To Continue? Probably. I find it amazing that Mr. Clifford neglected to bring a Silver test kit with him on his expedition. If you find more information Jim, please keep us up to date. You could always try to contact him through the Whydah Museum website. Have you read the book Walking The Plank by Stephen Kiesling yet? Last edited by Rick; 13th January 2025 at 03:15 AM.

21st January 2025, 08:18 PM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	If I recall correctly, the word was that they had not gone deep enough and the the majority was further beneath the sand, which is believable considering the amount of wave action off the 'backside' shoreline that moves so much sand around every year. When I was younger, I surfed this coast for 30 years or so and can attest to the amount of sand that gets moved around during the winter months. The picture below was taken by me from the parking lot at Nauset Light beach which is about 75 feet above sea level after a Winter storm. Then, when the weather is suitable for diving on the wreck we have a high White Shark count that probably rivals South Africa's these days, this causes the need for a few extra divers to watch out for them and work stops until they have departed the area. Divers in black wetsuits look very much like their favorite food, Seals. Attached Images

11th January 2025, 04:07 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Thanks so much guys! Great thoughts and perspective! uh, CC, r radiation shielding? LOL!!! good one. Very good points on the uses of lead, one of the key uses obviously in these contexts was ammunition. In most studies of arms I have probed looking for records of arms shipments etc. one of the key commodities was saltpetre for powder. On that note, mentioning the 'cutting' of commodities by unscrupulous officials was a very real issue. In the Spanish colonies in the 18th-19th c. the use of charcoal on powder was often used for financial gain by these guys, which became so notorious that Mexican powder was regarded nearly useless. It is a good idea that perhaps this relatively huge ingot was scribed with marks to pose as silver, and IMO very logical thought given these kinds of ploys. The big question is, Kidd is not widely known for the plunder of Spanish ships. However there is an obscure reference of him taking one vessel out of Lima for Spain, and there may have been silver but no detailed references I am aware of. Other than that, it seems possible that OTHER pirates in this haven in Madagascar might have acquired this sort of 'treasure' (or would be 'silver'). Perhaps even such ingots might have served as decoys on these vessels to detract from actual silver cache? While I know that lead ballast was indeed produced in ingots, as noted pig iron or stone was more commonly used. There was apparently a notable production of lead ingots for ballast in England often used on Dutch ships as well. The use of ballast outward voyage, and disposed of in ports of call in place of key cargo seems logical. The lead, as noted, might serve as a usable commodity in these colonial destinations for purposes described. The DILEMMA here is : Why has there been no follow up on the disposition of this curious ingot after its 2015 discovery? Even if not silver, and not definitive proof of finding Kidds "Adventure Galley" (which is still listed as unlocated) it is still a historic artifact. UNESCO pretty much blasted Clifford for premature announcement and claims to finding Kidd;s ship and ever elusive 'treasure'....with what they showed AFTER testing (which Clifford did not do) was simply lead. Was this just too embarassing to continue, ? was any further search done in the site? UNESCO says there was no ship wreckage, only what appears to be pylons or other debris from what may have been a careening dock or structure. SO WHERE IS THIS BAR NOW? Was it ever tested further? any other items with it? only ONE bar? I really appreciate you guys answering, and for good ideas. I feel sort of at an impasse here so its good to have your support.

11th January 2025, 06:06 PM	#2
Bob A Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 435	Fraudulent marking was the first thought that came to my mind as well. As for UNESCO, their summary dismissal of the "ship" as debris is undercut by the fact of the bar and its description. While I hesitate to ascribe ulterior, even nefarious, motives generally, when stakes are high, character tends to slip a bit.

13th January 2025, 02:55 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Bob thank you for answering. The entire case for this being a silver bar and hyped into 'Captain Kidds treasure' seems to be 'on course for the unfortunately sensationalized career of Mr. Clifford. Rick, I hoped you would come in on this, as for years you have called attention to the character of Clifford and your views were from close personal contact with him in your areas. I think the use of disguised lead bars as valuable plunder must have been one of those unexplored areas of maritime trade and of course the piracy which becomes part of those contexts. The nature of the 'ingot' from the Ile St. Marie harbor is first of all, a bit too large and heavy for a silver ingot and from what I can find on the apparently esoteric area of lead ballast bars, this unusual shape concurs somewhat. The so called markings cut into this bar are 'in the manner' of the assay and control markings on Spanish silver bars, but of course, much cruder and interpretative. Absent are the conventional assay characters and of course the 'bite' marks (chunks for analysis by assayer). It seems more than irresponsible to announce the locating of the Adventure Galley based on this single bar without proper testing. All I can think of is that the media was already on hand as Clifford had already been in this location seeking the wreck for some time, and they were ready to pounce. Still, Clifford should have cooled things down and followed protocols. One of the most notable issues with him is the lack of proper archaeological staff on hand to ensure these kinds of protocols. What I am trying to figure out is what became of this curiously disguised ingot after the year of hooplah in 2015. While clearly not 'treasure' it is still a valuable historic item as it was probably taken by one of the pirate groups who frequented there, and tossed as worthless. That it was found in an area of debris from dock structures rather than wreckage of a vessel seems to support that. Thank you for the heads up on that book ! Ill check it out I will see if I can find out more as you suggest, and as always invite any other input from those reading here, it has always been a team effort here. It seems appropriate that pirate ships so often used ADVENTURE in thier names !!! It is exactly what they have given us!

18th January 2025, 01:07 PM	#5
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 409	Bering in mind we are talking about pirates, not overly renowned for their scruples, I am not the least surprised by the existence of any nefarious markings. Best wishes Richard

22nd January 2025, 07:46 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Thanks Rick, that makes good sense, and I can understand how much sand is moved about over virtually centuries. If I understand correctly the biggest problem in navigating these waters through inlets and ever changing shoals is those kinds of dynamics. What I wonder is, was there only one rather large 'ingot' found? and despite the negative result with the actual analysis revealing lead, what became of it? It is still historic. What has become of Clifford? Online entries stop after 2016. If I am right he seems focused on the Santa Maria ?

23rd January 2025, 10:56 PM	#9
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	He's still searching for the Santa Maria, Jim. The powers that be in the world of shipwreck archeology have deemed that the first discovery was not the Santa Maria.