Luzon or Panay?

RobT · 14th December 2024, 11:14 PM

Hi All,

My example is probably newer but perhaps it will help with origin.
Specs: 9.875" Girunting Blade, Dark brown wood hilt with aluminum inlay (pommel inlay missing), Brass ferrule and ”S” shaped aluminum cross guard, Wood sheath with aluminum inlay, aluminum and leather throat, Brass and aluminum chape.

Sincerely,
RobT

Ian · 14th December 2024, 11:42 PM

Hi Rob,

Does your example have a full length tang? There seems to be a plate at the end of the hilt.

JeffS · 15th December 2024, 02:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobT

Hi All,

My example is probably newer but perhaps it will help with origin.
Specs: 9.875" Girunting Blade, Dark brown wood hilt with aluminum inlay (pommel inlay missing), Brass ferrule and ”S” shaped aluminum cross guard, Wood sheath with aluminum inlay, aluminum and leather throat, Brass and aluminum chape.

Sincerely,
RobT

Shows this is a style vs odd ball since I agree my example seems older. I was curious how the round chape would look, great to see one intact.

RobT · 15th December 2024, 04:11 AM

Hi Ian,
It is a blind tang. What you are seeing as plate is actually the end of the wood hilt. It looks like a plate because it stands proud of the shallow cut outs for the missing (presumably aluminum) pommel ornaments.

Hi JeffS,
Yes, given the close similarity of the two pieces in blade, hilt, and sheath, it appears to be a type and not just a one off. It is the only Philippine "Bowie style" blade in my collection with a chisel grind. It makes me wonder even more strongly if the Philippine "Bowie" wasn't developed in the Philippines independently of the US Bowie style. The two clip points differ markedly with the Philippine clip point being far longer than the US version. Is it possible that the Philippine clip point was already in existence prior to WWII and just found favor with US service men because they were used to the clip point form?

Sincerely,
RobT

Ian · 15th December 2024, 01:58 PM

Rob,

Thanks for the clarification. The prominent "chisel" grind on these knives suggests that a Visayan origin is more likely than a Luzon origin. There are some regions within the island of Luzon that produce knives with a chisel grind, but they are relatively uncommon.

I would look at other areas of the Visayas as possible origins also. Cebu may be a possibility. It is a densely populated island that is politically important and likely to have a lot of foreigners interested in this knife style. Also the Eastern Visayas (Leyte and Samar) were the landing place for Macarthur's forces when he famously returned to the Philippines in WWII.

As far as the "Bowie" descriptor used so frequently nowadays, this is mostly a U.S. infatuation. Clipped knives have been around longer than the original "Bowie" knife. The practice of calling almost any clipped-point fixed blade a "Bowie knife" has got out of hand in relation to what the original knife is believed to have been. It seems to have become more of a marketing term than a defensible description of a class of large fighting knife.

The knife you show, excluding the chisel grind on the edge, is probably derived originally from various Mediterranean knives (fixed and folding blades) that were brought to the islands by the Spanish colonialists. IIRC the Spanish/Mediterranean clipped knives knives date back at least as far as the 18th C, perhaps earlier. There are some similar blade forms in Mexico that likely trace their origins to Spanish-derived Mediterranean blade styles also.

RobT · 15th December 2024, 06:36 PM

Ian,

Your point about the Bowie knife nomenclature being overused in the US is well taken, especially when you consider that exactly what the original Rezin Bowie produced item looked like is unknown and that many British made blades with spear points were sold in 19th century America as “Bowies”. About all you can say is that a Bowie is a large fixed blade knife with a cross guard (of various configurations) and very likely also has a blade with a clip point.
That the clip point has been around for a long time is also indisputable. For example, the Laguiole was first produced at around the same time as the first Bowie and clip point navajas go back further than that.
All of the above notwithstanding, I don’t have any fixed blade/cross guard/clip point knives from the Philippines in my collection (about 20 all toll) that I would date to before WWII nor have I ever seen any. Does anyone have an example to show us? What I would like to know is whether the so called Philippine Bowie style knife was a native development made prior to WWII or whether it was just a marketing ploy designed to sell knives to US troops.

Sincerely,
RobT

Sajen · 15th December 2024, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobT

That the clip point has been around for a long time is also indisputable. For example, the Laguiole was first produced at around the same time as the first Bowie and clip point navajas go back further than that.
All of the above notwithstanding, I don’t have any fixed blade/cross guard/clip point knives from the Philippines in my collection (about 20 all toll) that I would date to before WWII nor have I ever seen any. Does anyone have an example to show us?

Here you go Rob! From my collection, around 1900 (my guess), Luzon.

Regards,
Detlef

RobT · 16th December 2024, 01:09 AM

Sajen,

As I mentioned in my earlier post, in the US, Bowies can come with or without a clip point (many 19th century British examples have a spear point). Bowies also come with a variety of hilts and cross guard shapes but the three indispensable characteristics of a traditional Bowie in the US are large size, fixed blade, and (above all) a cross guard (with or without D-guard). Legend has it that Bowies have a cross guard because Rezin Bowie cut his hand severely when his hand slid up the blade of a knife he was using to kill a calf. Your example lacks the cross guard. I don’t have a single example of a “Philippine Bowie” in my collection that doesn’t have a cross guard. So, the question remains, is the “Philippine Bowie” as exemplified by so many WWII souvenirs a creation made especially after WWII for sale to US troops or was it an indigenous creation totally separate from US influence?

Sincerely,
RobT

14th December 2024, 11:14 PM	#1
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 535	Will This Help? Hi All, My example is probably newer but perhaps it will help with origin. Specs: 9.875" Girunting Blade, Dark brown wood hilt with aluminum inlay (pommel inlay missing), Brass ferrule and ”S” shaped aluminum cross guard, Wood sheath with aluminum inlay, aluminum and leather throat, Brass and aluminum chape. Sincerely, RobT Attached Images

15th December 2024, 04:11 AM	#4
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 535	An Intriguing Question Hi Ian, It is a blind tang. What you are seeing as plate is actually the end of the wood hilt. It looks like a plate because it stands proud of the shallow cut outs for the missing (presumably aluminum) pommel ornaments. Hi JeffS, Yes, given the close similarity of the two pieces in blade, hilt, and sheath, it appears to be a type and not just a one off. It is the only Philippine "Bowie style" blade in my collection with a chisel grind. It makes me wonder even more strongly if the Philippine "Bowie" wasn't developed in the Philippines independently of the US Bowie style. The two clip points differ markedly with the Philippine clip point being far longer than the US version. Is it possible that the Philippine clip point was already in existence prior to WWII and just found favor with US service men because they were used to the clip point form? Sincerely, RobT

15th December 2024, 06:36 PM	#6
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 535	Developed in the Philippines? Ian, Your point about the Bowie knife nomenclature being overused in the US is well taken, especially when you consider that exactly what the original Rezin Bowie produced item looked like is unknown and that many British made blades with spear points were sold in 19th century America as “Bowies”. About all you can say is that a Bowie is a large fixed blade knife with a cross guard (of various configurations) and very likely also has a blade with a clip point. That the clip point has been around for a long time is also indisputable. For example, the Laguiole was first produced at around the same time as the first Bowie and clip point navajas go back further than that. All of the above notwithstanding, I don’t have any fixed blade/cross guard/clip point knives from the Philippines in my collection (about 20 all toll) that I would date to before WWII nor have I ever seen any. Does anyone have an example to show us? What I would like to know is whether the so called Philippine Bowie style knife was a native development made prior to WWII or whether it was just a marketing ploy designed to sell knives to US troops. Sincerely, RobT

16th December 2024, 01:09 AM	#8
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 535	Missing The Defining Element Sajen, As I mentioned in my earlier post, in the US, Bowies can come with or without a clip point (many 19th century British examples have a spear point). Bowies also come with a variety of hilts and cross guard shapes but the three indispensable characteristics of a traditional Bowie in the US are large size, fixed blade, and (above all) a cross guard (with or without D-guard). Legend has it that Bowies have a cross guard because Rezin Bowie cut his hand severely when his hand slid up the blade of a knife he was using to kill a calf. Your example lacks the cross guard. I don’t have a single example of a “Philippine Bowie” in my collection that doesn’t have a cross guard. So, the question remains, is the “Philippine Bowie” as exemplified by so many WWII souvenirs a creation made especially after WWII for sale to US troops or was it an indigenous creation totally separate from US influence? Sincerely, RobT

14th December 2024, 11:42 PM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,361	Hi Rob, Does your example have a full length tang? There seems to be a plate at the end of the hilt.

15th December 2024, 01:58 PM	#5
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,361	Rob, Thanks for the clarification. The prominent "chisel" grind on these knives suggests that a Visayan origin is more likely than a Luzon origin. There are some regions within the island of Luzon that produce knives with a chisel grind, but they are relatively uncommon. I would look at other areas of the Visayas as possible origins also. Cebu may be a possibility. It is a densely populated island that is politically important and likely to have a lot of foreigners interested in this knife style. Also the Eastern Visayas (Leyte and Samar) were the landing place for Macarthur's forces when he famously returned to the Philippines in WWII. As far as the "Bowie" descriptor used so frequently nowadays, this is mostly a U.S. infatuation. Clipped knives have been around longer than the original "Bowie" knife. The practice of calling almost any clipped-point fixed blade a "Bowie knife" has got out of hand in relation to what the original knife is believed to have been. It seems to have become more of a marketing term than a defensible description of a class of large fighting knife. The knife you show, excluding the chisel grind on the edge, is probably derived originally from various Mediterranean knives (fixed and folding blades) that were brought to the islands by the Spanish colonialists. IIRC the Spanish/Mediterranean clipped knives knives date back at least as far as the 18th C, perhaps earlier. There are some similar blade forms in Mexico that likely trace their origins to Spanish-derived Mediterranean blade styles also.