Early Yataghan for Comments and Discussion

[gp]

thank you for the most interesting additional information!
I really do like the mark on your bolster very much ☼
My compliments, a very good "catch"☺

[TVV]

My friend has another one of these potentially earlier yataghans, but it is much bigger, at about 80 cm overall. Another difference is the dark horn hilt and the blade decoration, even if the blade also has layers of Turkish Ribbon.





It is similar to this one that was sold by Sotheby's many years ago. I will also attach a picture in case the link stops working or the image is removed.

https://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions...0/lot.260.html

[mariusgmioc]

In my oppinion, this is a recent (very recent) yataghan made in the style of older examples.

I have visited extensively museums in Turkey and haven't encountered any single example of old blade with "Turkish ribbon" pattern weld. In fact, all "Turkish ribbon" pattern welded examples I have seen were assumed from late 19th century blades... but they were most likely 20th century.

[TVV]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

In my oppinion, this is a recent (very recent) yataghan made in the style of older examples.

I have visited extensively museums in Turkey and haven't encountered any single example of old blade with "Turkish ribbon" pattern weld. In fact, all "Turkish ribbon" pattern welded examples I have seen were assumed from late 19th century blades... but they were most likely 20th century.

I know I am being baited, but for the purpose of enhancing the knowledge of the community on this forum, this is a point that will need to be addressed. Before I respond, I just have a few clarifying questions:
1. Of all the yataghans I have presented so far in this thread, is mine the only one that you deem to be of recent manufacture, or does this extend to all the examples, including those sold by Oriental Arms, Sotheby's, etc?
2. A search containing the words "Turkish ribbon" produces 71 threads since the forum moved to VBulletin. The majority contain yataghans with Turkish ribbon blades, with hilts ranging from Algeria through to Balkans to Asia Minor. Are they all modern, 20th century and later creations?
3. Apart from yataghans, there are palas, bichaqs and even kindjals and quaddaras with twistcore rods in the blades. Are those also modern, or is the argument that smiths in the Ottoman Empire and surrounding areas back in the day applied twistcore to pretty much all blades they made except for yataghans?

[gp]

Thank you very much ! Благодаря много! for your fair comment and most interesting questions ...

which, to be honest... I do not have an answer to but like the exchange of minds on this issue as for one there is a very valid point raised and secondly even the literature in and from both the Balkans and Turkey ( how interesting they are ) do not always give conclusive answers.

Nevertheless I find this contribution and pics of yours and your friend's and others most interesting

[gp]

Perhaps a small contribution….

Found some topics containing “ turkish ribbon” in this forum from quite some years ago

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=20828

https://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=168074

And a youtube vid, although Zeybek, it mentions the ribbon as well


https://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=168074

An interesting item is the difference width’s of the yataghans pictures placed by TVV:
Some do look like the “standard” yataghan, whilst others seem to have a bigger “belly” close to the point.

I have no idea why or what the advantage or purpose of that would be for the weapon:
Does any of you know…?

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by TVV

I know I am being baited, but for the purpose of enhancing the knowledge of the community on this forum, this is a point that will need to be addressed. Before I respond, I just have a few clarifying questions:
1. Of all the yataghans I have presented so far in this thread, is mine the only one that you deem to be of recent manufacture, or does this extend to all the examples, including those sold by Oriental Arms, Sotheby's, etc?
2. A search containing the words "Turkish ribbon" produces 71 threads since the forum moved to VBulletin. The majority contain yataghans with Turkish ribbon blades, with hilts ranging from Algeria through to Balkans to Asia Minor. Are they all modern, 20th century and later creations?
3. Apart from yataghans, there are palas, bichaqs and even kindjals and quaddaras with twistcore rods in the blades. Are those also modern, or is the argument that smiths in the Ottoman Empire and surrounding areas back in the day applied twistcore to pretty much all blades they made except for yataghans?

I do not know about the other examples you mentioned, but I suspect most blades with "Turkish ribbon" to be late 19th century or early 20th century.

It wouldn't be an exception for the most prestigious auction houses to be dead wrong on dating their lots. Museums also...

From practical, mechanical point of view, "Turkish ribbon" pattern weld serves solely decorative reasons and does not contribute positively to the mechanical properties of the blade... on contrary.

But this is only my opinion, based on my own observations and personal research.

Ultimately, people believe what they want to believe.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

I do not know about the other examples you mentioned, but I suspect most blades with "Turkish ribbon" to be late 19th century or early 20th century.

It wouldn't be an exception for the most prestigious auction houses to be dead wrong on dating their lots. Museums also...

From practical, mechanical point of view, "Turkish ribbon" pattern weld serves solely decorative reasons and does not contribute positively to the mechanical properties of the blade... on contrary.

But this is only my opinion, based on my own observations and personal research.

Ultimately, people believe what they want to believe.

Hello Marius,

I don't have an opinion myself on the subject but I know that everybody can be deadly wrong, also so called experts.
I miss a few words in your statement: "I could be wrong!"
I've noticed every time again that people put their personal opinion as a fact. I am careful with such statements, my two cents!

Regards,
Detlef

[Gustav]

The earliest dated yataghan with twisted rod pattern (Turkish ribbon) to my knowledge is from 1592. Around this date twisted rod pattern appears also in Asia and SEAsia.