A keraton (?) keris in east javanese dress, where is the blade from?

Wijaya34 · 27th November 2024, 10:32 AM

A similar putra satu/buta hilt in my posession, also with a fluted body.

Sajen · 27th November 2024, 08:10 PM

Thank you Wijaya for posting this very similar Putra Satu hilt from your collection, a style I've never seen before so far I can remember and it seems that I am not the only one.

And the gold selut seems to be original to your ivory (or is it deer horn or bone?) one. A great hilt for sure!

Regards,
Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 27th November 2024, 08:12 PM

Hmmm.

David · 27th November 2024, 10:09 PM

Wondering if anyone can give me some clarification regarding Buta Bajang vs Putra Satu hilts. Are both these hilts meant to be considered the same category of being? We used to refer to the Buta hilts as Raksasa, though that seems out of favour now. Raksasa are, of course, supposed to be giants or monsters. Buta Bajang hilts do indeed seem to be a demon form and most often feature fangs.
Alan you may be able to help better with the language here as i only have internet translators which are notoriously awful when it comes to Indonesian languages. But Buta Bajang seems to mean "Giant Boy" while Putra Satu seems to mean "One Son". I have seen many hilts identified as Putra Satu that do not have fangs. And by naming it as a "son" (family) i don't see the intention for it to be a demon. Are Putra Satu hilts supposed to also be demons (or giants/ogres) like Buta Bajang or are they a completely different category of beings? Also, the hilts i most often see identified as Putra Satu are more abstract and vegetal like this hilts are. So i am not sure i would have identified Wijaya's hilts as Putra Satu. Anyone have thoughts on this.

A. G. Maisey · 28th November 2024, 12:17 AM

David, I have not ever given a great deal attention to the matter you would like to see clarified. I think that in face to face discussion we would normally stay with whatever name the first person who used a name, chose to use.

I am not at all certain that any one name is more correct than any other name.

In recent years, in relaxed conversation, in English, I think I tend to use "demon", if in BI I tend to use "raksasa". The raksasa term has been around forever & it applies if the face has fangs.

I never heard all these other names 30 & more years ago, but it seems that now we have more names for everything than we could ever desire.

Sort of reminds me a bit of what Pauzan said when "Insiklopedi" was published. The forerunner of "Insiklopedi" was "Insiklopedi Budaya" same idea, same author, but much smaller, much tighter, much less open to debate.

Pauzan said, freely translated "--- where did all these names come from? where did all this information come from? who told him this? who taught him? the first book was very good, it was put together with a team of knowledgeable, careful people, but this new one (Ensiklopedi) --- do we need it? ---"

I feel a bit like Pauzan sometimes, especially when I hear the thoughts & opinions of relatively inexperienced people (in Javanese terms) holding forth on what is & is not correct.

However, that said, I do have some references at home --- I'm not there right now --- when I get back I'll have a look & see if the reference works I have in mind might provide some sort of answer.

27th November 2024, 10:32 AM	#1
Wijaya34 Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Posts: 9	A similar putra satu/buta hilt in my posession, also with a fluted body. Attached Images

27th November 2024, 10:09 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Wondering if anyone can give me some clarification regarding Buta Bajang vs Putra Satu hilts. Are both these hilts meant to be considered the same category of being? We used to refer to the Buta hilts as Raksasa, though that seems out of favour now. Raksasa are, of course, supposed to be giants or monsters. Buta Bajang hilts do indeed seem to be a demon form and most often feature fangs. Alan you may be able to help better with the language here as i only have internet translators which are notoriously awful when it comes to Indonesian languages. But Buta Bajang seems to mean "Giant Boy" while Putra Satu seems to mean "One Son". I have seen many hilts identified as Putra Satu that do not have fangs. And by naming it as a "son" (family) i don't see the intention for it to be a demon. Are Putra Satu hilts supposed to also be demons (or giants/ogres) like Buta Bajang or are they a completely different category of beings? Also, the hilts i most often see identified as Putra Satu are more abstract and vegetal like this hilts are. So i am not sure i would have identified Wijaya's hilts as Putra Satu. Anyone have thoughts on this. Attached Images

27th November 2024, 08:10 PM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,165	Thank you Wijaya for posting this very similar Putra Satu hilt from your collection, a style I've never seen before so far I can remember and it seems that I am not the only one. And the gold selut seems to be original to your ivory (or is it deer horn or bone?) one. A great hilt for sure! Regards, Detlef

27th November 2024, 08:12 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Hmmm.

28th November 2024, 12:17 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	David, I have not ever given a great deal attention to the matter you would like to see clarified. I think that in face to face discussion we would normally stay with whatever name the first person who used a name, chose to use. I am not at all certain that any one name is more correct than any other name. In recent years, in relaxed conversation, in English, I think I tend to use "demon", if in BI I tend to use "raksasa". The raksasa term has been around forever & it applies if the face has fangs. I never heard all these other names 30 & more years ago, but it seems that now we have more names for everything than we could ever desire. Sort of reminds me a bit of what Pauzan said when "Insiklopedi" was published. The forerunner of "Insiklopedi" was "Insiklopedi Budaya" same idea, same author, but much smaller, much tighter, much less open to debate. Pauzan said, freely translated "--- where did all these names come from? where did all this information come from? who told him this? who taught him? the first book was very good, it was put together with a team of knowledgeable, careful people, but this new one (Ensiklopedi) --- do we need it? ---" I feel a bit like Pauzan sometimes, especially when I hear the thoughts & opinions of relatively inexperienced people (in Javanese terms) holding forth on what is & is not correct. However, that said, I do have some references at home --- I'm not there right now --- when I get back I'll have a look & see if the reference works I have in mind might provide some sort of answer.