Help with the Moro Kris/Kalis/Sundang

[Ian]

Hi Detlef,

Thanks! I posted my last comment in the middle of the night (my time) during a period of insomnia.
My apologies IP.

Ian.

[Interested Party]

Originally Posted by Ian

Hi Detlef,

Thanks! I posted my last comment in the middle of the night (my time) during a period of insomnia.
My apologies IP.

Ian.

No worries. I am glad your insomnia is more productive than mine. I am sorry that I can't give you dimensions of the last blade. I have been preoccupied with adulting lately and it slipped through my fingers. It was for sale in the US.

I had read the thread you linked earlier but had forgotten where to find the information it contained. Thank you for refreshing my memory.

I really appreciate everyone taking the time to respond to this thread. The concrete examples are really helping me to "see" these objects more clearly. I wanted to create a thread that brough together many of the elements of the Kalis that had been discussed recently into one thread with many examples to give myself and other readers repetition in recognizing features and what slight variations signified. Ian, is the longer gandik you speak of in relation to Malaysian manufacture/influence the same as what Cato called cross over type?

I asked the question on conservation because I had noticed blades of this level of corrosion being gently reshaped before resale, then etched to hide the loss of patination, and I wondered about the ethics of this process.

[Ian]

Hi again IP,

In post #10 of this thread you show a sword that I did not comment on earlier. It is an older style of blade, with the "arrow head" feature. The "elephant trunk" area is also an older style. However, we don't know the length of the blade and the waves are rather flat for an archaic form of kris. The absence of side panels on this medium-sized kakatua pommel suggests an older form from before the mid-19th C. There are examples of these older forms being "updated" with nailed on side panels.

I would conservatively date this one to the first half of the 19th C, perhaps late 18th C.

The dress on the hilt is not typical Moro work because the cross section of the grip appears to be hexagonal (or possibly octagonal) rather than round. Multifaceted hilts are seen on some old Malayan sundang, continuing up to modern times. There is a nice example of such a hilt, shown recently in this thread, on a Malayan sundang in a Melayu scabbard.

[JeffS]

Love this thread, hope IP cool with others jumping in with examples for discussion . Here is another one for consideration, I recently bought this on Ebay as a clean up project. I'm particularly curious what types of pommel one might expect to find on it. Understood that dress can be highly variable and differ regionally from the sword itself. To my eyes the scabbard almost has a Malay "sampir" style. These are photos from vendor, not high resolution.

[Ian]

Hi Jeff. I think this one is a bit of a "tweener" from the late 19th C. It was definitely meant to be a weapon for combat. The "elephant trunk" area is sort of midway between Sulu and Maguindanao, with a horizontal tusk (Maguindanao feature) and a somewhat oval outline to the area bordered by the trunk and gandhik (Sulu feature). If pushed to decide between the two regarding the elephant trunk area, I would probably pick Maguindanao. At one time there were two asang asang, but now just the one. Two suggests a more likely Sulu origin, but is not definitive.

The midline of the hilt bends down, which is more of a Mindanao trait than a Sulu trait. The cross piece of the scabbard has a rounded bottom shoulder, but a sharply pointed top shoulder. The sharp point leads me to a Maguindanao origin.

Overall, I think the dress is Maguindanao, and the likely pommel was probably a medium-sized kakatua. The supporting peg for the pommel is still there, although damaged.

[JeffS]

Originally Posted by Ian

At one time there were two asang asang, but now just the one. Two suggests a more likely Sulu origin, but is not definitive.

I have another kris with missing asang-asang, also from the "greneng" side (below). This is also seller photo, I have since removed the tape on the handle and rust on the blade. Under that black tape there is still handle wrap holding the prior asang-asang strap and the notch in ferule supported a robust attachment with limited failure points. Of course it could have taken a blow and was lost, but I wonder if it may have been intentionally removed to match style of new owner.

[Ian]

Originally Posted by JeffS

. To my eyes the scabbard almost has a Malay "sampir" style. ...

Yes, it does have a Malay look.

[Ian]

Jeff, it's interesting to note that when a Moro kris is made with a single asang asang, that single asang asang is always on the side of the "elephant trunk." This is also true for Malayan sundang. When there is evidence of twin asang asang having once been present but only one remains on the sword, the remaining one is almost always on the "elephant trunk" side. (I say almost always because I can only recall two or three that have had the remaining one on the side of the greneng.) This suggests to me that the asang asang from the greneng side is removed intentionally to convert a doubly-endowed blade to a single asang asang.

I believe double asang asang are a feature mainly of Sulu kris, while single asang asang are a feature mainly of Mindanao kris and Malayan sundang. Thus, if a Maranao or Maguindanao or Iranum wished to redress a Sulu kris according to their cultural norms, the extra asang asang on the greneng side would likely be removed. I think this is why we see quite a few kris like the one you show, with signs of a missing asang asang on the greneng side.

BTW, the elephant trunk area of the sword in post #22 above looks to be Maranao in origin.

[Interested Party]

Originally Posted by JeffS

Love this thread, hope IP cool with others jumping in with examples for discussion .

Not at all Jeff. Lots of discussion and datapoints are the dream. I was having trouble seeing the differences between examples. I created this tread to help understand regional differences in the kris with the existing sources I could find. I hoped having lots of examples discussed would be a resource for myself and others.