A keraton (?) keris in east javanese dress, where is the blade from?

A. G. Maisey · 24th November 2024, 09:35 PM

This is not an opinion, what follows is only comment based upon feeling.

The blade is not stylistically Javanese. It might be recent Madura work but if so the craftsman has not been consistent in expression of characteristics.

The hilt & selut has the feeling of Sumatera, not Jawa.

The wrongko does not appear to be original to the blade.

Over the last few months I have seen similar combinations that are, to say the least, confusing for me, this is especially true of the hilt/selut combination.

Again:- the above is NOT opinion, it is an expression of feelings. In this case I could not form an opinion unless I handled the item under discussion, & perhaps not even then.

Whoever put this keris together was trying very hard.

David · 25th November 2024, 03:37 AM

Just to be clear i wasn't suggesting the style of this keris is Javanese. My comparison to Banten keris was simply to point out that many people look at those and mistake them for Balinese keris as well. Alan, though you haven't actually given an opinion, i believe your suggestion of a possible Madura origin is very possible.
There is a prominent collector on another page where this discussion is taking place who has posted the following in regards to this keris: "This is a very high quality East Javanese, I would say, Madurese Keris, before 1870, possibly even before 1850. Around 10 years ago a blade, very possibly by the same maker, was auctioned in UK."
Personally i am finding it difficult to see this blade as a 19th century piece. The materials just don't look right for that era and it seems very well preserved for that age.
As for the hilt, as Detlef has requested, it would be nice to see some detailed photos of it. I am not seeing Sumatra in this hilt as Alan is, but i did see some other angles on the other site where this has been presented and i found much more in common with North Jawa than i do with Sumatran hilts. Regardless it is a beautiful jereran and deserves a nicer showing so if you could take a few closer shots from a few angles that would be great, thanks!

A. G. Maisey · 25th November 2024, 04:50 AM

As I have commented, as you have recognised, David, I cannot give an opinion, just comments.

So here is another comment:- I have yet to see any Javanese hilt or selut that has similar design elements to the hilt & selut on this keris. The fluted body of the hilt is something I cannot recall from anywhere, the stiff, tense execution is something that I'm more used to seeing in recent hilts, rather than in older ones, the selut is quite similar to some Sumatran styles, the gold selut looks like good quality modern gold plate, not gilding. To my eye there is nothing I can see in this hilt that would cause me to align it with anything I have previously seen, except perhaps the demon's head.

I simply cannot form an opinion, maybe I'm just too cynical, too doubting, but when I see something I cannot align with things I have seen, & when that something clearly wants to be taken seriously as a quality item, only parts of which have seen hard times, I tend to rely on feelings. In this case my feelings are that I'd like to hold it in my hand before I committed to any firm opinion.

Interested Party · 26th November 2024, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I have yet to see any Javanese hilt or selut that has similar design elements to the hilt & selut on this keris. The fluted body of the hilt is something I cannot recall from anywhere, the stiff, tense execution is something that I'm more used to seeing in recent hilts, rather than in older ones, the selut is quite similar to some Sumatran styles, the gold selut looks like good quality modern gold plate, not gilding. To my eye there is nothing I can see in this hilt that would cause me to align it with anything I have previously seen, except perhaps the demon's head.

May I ask a few remedial follow up questions about the feelings this piece gives? Do you think the fluted body is related to the drapery folds on some Madurese donorikko hilts or 18th century European sword hilts?

The selut style that is Sumatran is the granulation not the shape? This patten of granulations is often combined with pierced work, correct?

Age wise for the hilt are we thinking late 19th century if older Post 1950 or post 1980 if not? The selut is post 1980?

In any cast it is a very fetching keris, even if it is "stiff".

A. G. Maisey · 26th November 2024, 06:02 PM

1) I have not considered any reasons for the hilt being fluted, I have only noted that it is fluted and that this characteristic not one that I have previously seen.

2) The form & execution of the selut bears similarities some seluts that can be attributed to Sumatera. I cannot determine how the perceived granulation pattern was created in the absence of physical examination.

3) The hilt has been well carved, the blade is competent, the scabbard is beyond repair. As for it being attractive, for me, no it is not, for others it may be.

Gustav · 26th November 2024, 06:43 PM

A couple of pictures - two of the original Keris from auction house in France, before being cleaned. As we see, the scabbard is a perfect fit, contrary to the remark "The wrongko does not appear to be original to the blade".

Also two pictures of a blade, which was auctioned in UK about ten years ago. I would say, both blades are stylistically very close.

Regarding the fluted body - the idea of it comes from an Majapahit architectural element, which does live forth in Pasisir hilts. The original thought of this architectural element quite possibly is banyan tree trunk. The meaning of hilt and related Pasisir hilts thus could be a spiritual entity, which resides in a banyan tree - a very common idea in Indonesia.

David · 26th November 2024, 07:48 PM

Gustav, thanks for the additional images and your ideas on this fluted trunk. I can also see this theme to a certain extent in this East Jawa hilt in Jean's hilt book.
Regarding the wrongko, while this blade may well have been adapted to this sheath i must say that i would have expected a different fit to accommodate the gonjo wilut of this blade. It rides a bit too high in the wrongko. But i will say than none of the images i have seen are really satisfactory enough to draw an firm opinion.

26th November 2024, 06:43 PM	#6
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	A couple of pictures - two of the original Keris from auction house in France, before being cleaned. As we see, the scabbard is a perfect fit, contrary to the remark "The wrongko does not appear to be original to the blade". Also two pictures of a blade, which was auctioned in UK about ten years ago. I would say, both blades are stylistically very close. Regarding the fluted body - the idea of it comes from an Majapahit architectural element, which does live forth in Pasisir hilts. The original thought of this architectural element quite possibly is banyan tree trunk. The meaning of hilt and related Pasisir hilts thus could be a spiritual entity, which resides in a banyan tree - a very common idea in Indonesia. Attached Images

26th November 2024, 07:48 PM	#7
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Gustav, thanks for the additional images and your ideas on this fluted trunk. I can also see this theme to a certain extent in this East Jawa hilt in Jean's hilt book. Regarding the wrongko, while this blade may well have been adapted to this sheath i must say that i would have expected a different fit to accommodate the gonjo wilut of this blade. It rides a bit too high in the wrongko. But i will say than none of the images i have seen are really satisfactory enough to draw an firm opinion. Attached Images

24th November 2024, 09:35 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	This is not an opinion, what follows is only comment based upon feeling. The blade is not stylistically Javanese. It might be recent Madura work but if so the craftsman has not been consistent in expression of characteristics. The hilt & selut has the feeling of Sumatera, not Jawa. The wrongko does not appear to be original to the blade. Over the last few months I have seen similar combinations that are, to say the least, confusing for me, this is especially true of the hilt/selut combination. Again:- the above is NOT opinion, it is an expression of feelings. In this case I could not form an opinion unless I handled the item under discussion, & perhaps not even then. Whoever put this keris together was trying very hard.

25th November 2024, 03:37 AM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Just to be clear i wasn't suggesting the style of this keris is Javanese. My comparison to Banten keris was simply to point out that many people look at those and mistake them for Balinese keris as well. Alan, though you haven't actually given an opinion, i believe your suggestion of a possible Madura origin is very possible. There is a prominent collector on another page where this discussion is taking place who has posted the following in regards to this keris: "This is a very high quality East Javanese, I would say, Madurese Keris, before 1870, possibly even before 1850. Around 10 years ago a blade, very possibly by the same maker, was auctioned in UK." Personally i am finding it difficult to see this blade as a 19th century piece. The materials just don't look right for that era and it seems very well preserved for that age. As for the hilt, as Detlef has requested, it would be nice to see some detailed photos of it. I am not seeing Sumatra in this hilt as Alan is, but i did see some other angles on the other site where this has been presented and i found much more in common with North Jawa than i do with Sumatran hilts. Regardless it is a beautiful jereran and deserves a nicer showing so if you could take a few closer shots from a few angles that would be great, thanks!

25th November 2024, 04:50 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	As I have commented, as you have recognised, David, I cannot give an opinion, just comments. So here is another comment:- I have yet to see any Javanese hilt or selut that has similar design elements to the hilt & selut on this keris. The fluted body of the hilt is something I cannot recall from anywhere, the stiff, tense execution is something that I'm more used to seeing in recent hilts, rather than in older ones, the selut is quite similar to some Sumatran styles, the gold selut looks like good quality modern gold plate, not gilding. To my eye there is nothing I can see in this hilt that would cause me to align it with anything I have previously seen, except perhaps the demon's head. I simply cannot form an opinion, maybe I'm just too cynical, too doubting, but when I see something I cannot align with things I have seen, & when that something clearly wants to be taken seriously as a quality item, only parts of which have seen hard times, I tend to rely on feelings. In this case my feelings are that I'd like to hold it in my hand before I committed to any firm opinion.

26th November 2024, 06:02 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	1) I have not considered any reasons for the hilt being fluted, I have only noted that it is fluted and that this characteristic not one that I have previously seen. 2) The form & execution of the selut bears similarities some seluts that can be attributed to Sumatera. I cannot determine how the perceived granulation pattern was created in the absence of physical examination. 3) The hilt has been well carved, the blade is competent, the scabbard is beyond repair. As for it being attractive, for me, no it is not, for others it may be.