Dating the 3 identifiable ages of the Moro Kris ?

[Federico]

[QUOTE=MABAGANI]

Originally Posted by Federico

Actually, the Maranao were the last to convert to Islam. Their favored sword being the kampilan. For the archaic kris to develop in such a uniform style there would have to be a convergence, which is why I point to Kudrat and his father, during the height of the Maguindanao's power.

While the last to convert, they are still converted to Islam by our earliest potential birth of the archaic style, the 16th century (albeit by the latter part of the 16th century). Also, the Maguindanao favored the kampilan as well (as many pictures of Maguindanao courts, and the invariable kampilan bearers would attest), which in relation to the Maranao favor of the weapon, I would consider similar. I do believe that, while the idea of convergence during the Kudarat period, could explain diffusion through Mindanao, it falls short when considering Sulu. Kudarat had definitely strong control over much of Mindanao, but the extent of his and Mindanao cultural influence over Sulu during this period is questionable. I still feel that the most likely introduction point for the kris into Sulu would be the advent of Iranun colonists into the Sulu sultanate. Warren, in his works, suggests there was considerable cultural change in the Sulu sultanate during this period, in particular due to the Iranun infusion. Then again, we also have the question, was the change from keris to kris a rapid change or a gradual? If rapid, then Maranao origins could still be applicable despite a late introduction of Islam (then again we are also still working on the premise that Islam brought with it Malay culture, something I feel is defendable, particularly when looking at Lumad tribes, particularly those related to Moro groups such as the Tirruray), but then if not rapid what kind of time-line are we dealing with, and would the Kudarat period be enough time?

[MABAGANI]

The territory of the Maranao being geographically inland does not support a keris to kris origin, further neither early mythologies, the Darangen nor the Indapatra mention the use of the kris. Like Islam, the keris diaspora would have been through Brunei, Sulu to Mindanao, but the impetus for change from keris to kris point to the Maguindanao and their rise to power.
Of note, all the Moro courts including Sulu had kampilan bearers.
Warren's works concentrate heavily on Sulu in a later period after the Maguindano decline.
Look back to the works by Majul and Laarhoven, they specifically note Sulu/Mindanao alliances during the reign of Buisan and Kudrat, two generations of father and son, consolidating forces among the Moro sultanates including Sulu, Basilan, Brunei, Ternate, Makassar, even the Iranun and Maranao during this period fell under Sultan Kudrat's sphere. During Buisan's time Sulu and Mindanao joined forces to fight over control of the Visayas against the Spanish, these relationships carry over to Kudrat, who becomes one of the most powerful leaders in Moro history.

[Federico]

I still feel the cultural exchange, during the Kudarat/Buisan period, from Maguindanao to Sulu questionable. As you have noted, this is a period of alliances with other Sultanates, however these Sultanates retained their own sense of cultural/political sovereignty. Whereas in Mindanao, the Maguindanao under Kudarat held political and cultural hegemony. What comes to question in the Maguindanao/Sulu relationship in this period, is that if the Sultanates retained their own, and there were multiple Sultanates involved (as you noted Ternate, Makassar, etc...) why was the kris sword vs. keris dagger limited in its diffusion to Sulu, and not Ternate? Also, as you would note in Majul and Laarhoven, these points of convergence were not necessarily contiguous events during both ruler's reigns, but rather intermittent and need based in nature. Would this be enough for the necessary cultural/technological diffusion necessary? Not necessarily a negating factor, but still a factor. Finally, do not both the Darangen and Indapatra stem from pre-Islamic roots? As such, if we assume the kris to be rooted in Islamic introduction into Moro society, then it would of course be natural that there would be no mention of the kris, but rather the kampilan (which existed prior to Islamic/Malay cultural introduction).

[MABAGANI]

The same can be asked of Makassar and Ternate, an explanation can be they both fall to foreign rule, while Brunei, Sulu and Mindanao remain independent. If you've read either the Darangen or the Indapatra, they both had pre-Islamic roots but in the Darangen, there began a mix of Islamic culture intertwined with earlier beliefs, yet still no mention of the kris, a curiousity...
So where does Sulu/Tausug and the barung in your opinion fall into place, if the Maranao and Iranun retain the kampilan early on as their weapon of choice with the kris coming at some later point. Again it is in the 17th century where I find first mention of the barung and strangely it is in relation to Maguindanao history. In regards to the diffusion of the keris to kris, I don't see it only limited to Sulu, there are clear examples of the early form transcending the major Moro regions that remained independent including Brunei, Sulu, Maguindanao and Maranao each carrying their own characteristics but only one verifiable point in history where they converge, during the rise of the Maguindanao Sultanate, an explanation for the uniform shape of the early kris form. This does not point to an exclusive origin to the Maguindanao but a joint effort among the various Sultanates to consolidate culturally. The barung became favored among the Tausug and was later used to indentify themselves as a distinct group as they began their rise to power while the Maguindanaos declined.
btw After studying Tausug Silat and the traditional use of the barung, I see no relation to what I've heard repeated over and over among some eskrima and arnis practitioners and the short stick or close range fighting systems, that their art is based on the barung, its been passed on as truth for as long as I can remember but needs a good hard look at reality among FMA teachers.

[Federico]

In the case of Makassar and Ternate, while one could argue why the kris eventually falls to dis-use in relation to European colonialism, at the time of Maguindanao assedency under Kudarat, they still have a largely autonomous range. If the kris diffused under Kudarat allied groups, they would have still been independent enough to adopt it during the time. However, as evidenced in the Wilhelm keris, discussed in previous kris evolution threads, if we assume the keris to have the older date of 1650s which would be in the Kudarat period, it is definitely still a keris and not an archaic kris. So what archaic kris do we have from this period in allied areas, to support the Maguindanao diffusion theory in the Kudarat period? It comes back to the circular argument of provenance, and beyond provenance context. As you know, colonies of Iranun and Balangingi were wide spread far beyond the old Sultanates rings of hegemony, and ethnic memory has been diffused in larger populations in as short as 50-100 years. Then, do we even have a archaic example that can be dated to the Kudarat period of the 17th century. The most famous depiction of Kudarat is him with a Kampilan, which would have and has been a campaign sword of war. The diffusion of the archaic kris is dependent on an early origin of the kris, but is it possible at this early date the kris could still be a keris? Again, back to provenance. Anyways, if we adopt Majul's notion of the Islamization of Mindanao, we adopt a viewpoint of varying waves of Islamic proselization (Sp?), in which ever greater waves of Islamic culture begins to be brought in at differing points, culminating in the formation of Sultanates. Is it possible then, that the Islamic trends in the Darangen could A. be later insertions (legends change over time, perhaps such a nationalist epic would have had inserted Islamic themes to satisfy later audiences Islamic Identity). B. have been written at a point in which early Islamic themes had been introduced, but still prior to the full introduction of Malay culture. Finally is cultural diffusion dependent on State sponsorship, such as official Maguindanao ascendency? There are many examples that would suggest no (eg. Western cultural diffusion into the former Communist block), so would later loose raiding during the 18th century be a potential point of diffusion amongst groups, that while not officially state allied, out of practicality come into contact? Anyways, I still feel the answer lies in a survey of provenanced collections added to our theoretical history/cultural debate. Without one or the other, it is lacking, but with both I think we can find answers. Now, who wants to sponsor this survey

[MABAGANI]

Provenance can also come into question, I've seen many artifacts mislabeled, so how would can they be judged as accurate. Provenanced pieces that are labeled with a year, place and battle are convincing, these are rare, but there are many swords that are mislabeled even by scholars now and from the past. My main point about the era of Buisan and Kudrat is that there was a convergence in the Islamic faith among the Moro Sultanates and of interest in the archaic kris was that there was an uncanny convergence and resemblance in form, generations to follow at later periods I would expect vast regional changes in style and interpretation, which we find. btw I wouldn't expect Kudrat to pick a kris (archaic) over a kampilan...he was Maguindanao after all, but as a royal he would have known the significance of the kris and its unifying symbol among Malay Muslims. Here again, it would have been the royals presenting a form and the warrior class adapting it in battle, tests in fighting itself would have been enough for rapid change. Note re: the Darangen, the kampilan was so revered that even if other swords were present through the ages the Maranao may have not wanted to change their oral tradition, the epic is currently endangered to time til this day because much of its writings go against Islamic ideology but the Moros of Mindanao and Sulu have always been considered different and have long practiced what is considered "folk Islam" meaning practicing a mixture of early beliefs intertwined in the faith.
Back to the dating question, in early Spanish chronicles during the conquest for Luzon it was written that the bladed weapons used in Manila were small and ineffective, could they have meant the early kris? Supposedly the kris and kampilan were known thoughout the islands. Northern Luzon actually has legends about the kampilan written in epics. Also of note during the time of PI revolution the Katipunan among the educated elite began adapting the kris of old into their weaponry.
I'll let my theory rest at this point until I can get an alien to slingshot me back in time to validate my hunches...
At that, here is an odd keris/kris small in size and weight compared to the archaic kris but the same form blade with flat rounded almost oval tang, latter misfitted with a Visayan hilt...could this have been the type made prior to the archaic kris? I could use the archaic kris effectively as a sword but this one is too light and dagger like. I found it online from the PI and thought it was worth examining and studying.

[tom hyle]

Is the sheath made for it, or is that a garab sheath? The hilt is markedly similar (though not identical) to one I recently acquired, which seems to have had a full-length wrapping on the grip part in the fashion usually associated with Moro work. Yours?