a puzzle

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by NeilUK

Thanks for the extra info, Jim. It helps us along the road a bit more even if we haven't yet reached a conclusion.
Neil

You bet Neil! I felt kinda the same way....these posts just sit there and nobody says anything. As I noted, I dont know a lot on bayonets...but Im not afraid of opening a book, searching online etc. there are so many resources these days.

The whole idea of this forum is to discuss, share ideas, investigate, discover, preserve history.....and I am grateful to those who DO participate.
I learned from this unusual bayonet you posted, so thank you.

These kinds of anomalies often remain unresolved, but imagine if this WAS one of those 18 made for British volunteers!!!

Three THOUSAND views.......only TWO responses, myself and 10th.......incredible.

[corrado26]

Could it be that the number at the socked is II/SI and not II/8I?

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by corrado26

Could it be that the number at the socked is II/SI and not II/8I?

That's what I was thinking too Udo. As I noted in my post (#4) the markings on the British volunteer unit bayonet are remarkably similar. In the late 1790s into early years of 1800s there was a distinct paranoia in England about possible French invasion. There were units of the army and artillery positioned along the coasts, and bolstered by various groups or units of militia.

It would seem possible that this might be markings from such a unit, though only some sort of corroboration from accounts of such units, which are apparently pretty scarce. The presumed numerals 18 seem more like an SI as the '8' character does not close and cross as it should, but remains open like an 'S.

[corrado26]

In my photo archive I found pictures of a percussion carbine with a lock signature "2. Scinde Irregular horse", a unit of the EIC in India. I am by no means a specialist of British troop markings and have absolutely nothing of helpful literature - but could i t be that II/SI stands for "2. Scinde Irregular" (or "Infantry")?

[10thRoyal]

Originally Posted by corrado26

In my photo archive I found pictures of a percussion carbine with a lock signature "2. Scinde Irregular horse", a unit of the EIC in India. I am by no means a specialist of British troop markings and have absolutely nothing of helpful literature - but could i t be that II/SI stands for "2. Scinde Irregular" (or "Infantry")?

That honestly checks all the boxes! Indian issued matches the spring clip, EIC issued would match the non-standard repurposed blade, and the inscription explanation is as close as we are likely to get. We'll done!

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by corrado26

In my photo archive I found pictures of a percussion carbine with a lock signature "2. Scinde Irregular horse", a unit of the EIC in India. I am by no means a specialist of British troop markings and have absolutely nothing of helpful literature - but could i t be that II/SI stands for "2. Scinde Irregular" (or "Infantry")?

BRILLIANT Udo!
I would never have thought of that, yet over 40 years ago virtually all I studied and collected was British cavalry in the British Raj in India.

Perhaps the similarity to the EIC bayonet mentioned by '10thHussar' earlier has deeper connection. These Northwest regions were of course administratively controlled by the British government and of course the EIC.

The province of Sind was vast, rugged and on the trade route from Bolan Pass to Sukkur, the caravans were plagued by raiding Baluchi warriors/ In 1839, the SCINDE IRREGULAR HORSE was formed to guard these caravans and protect the route.

In 1846...the SECOND regiment of Scinde Irregular Horse was formed!
The term irregular was of course to note these units were native forces operating as auxiliary to the regular British army, and the term irregular itself was proudly held as a kind of elite.

It is a compelling notion to think this bayonet, seemingly corresponding to the EIC bayonet type (with spring catch) loosely might be of this connection.....II=2nd SI=Scinde Irregular.

While bayonets are of course typically regarded as infantry weapons for muskets, these cavalry were often carrying carbines, and these did sometimes have bayonets. There was often a great deal of innovation in bayonets which were associated with these, and it seems that one such irregular unit was known to have had a type of sword bayonet (it may have been Jacobs Horse, I need to find the references).

The illustration is a painting of Rissaldar Mohubut Khan, Bahadur, an officer of 2nd Scinde Irregular Horse.

[corrado26]

sometimes a blind hen finds a corn too

[Jim McDougall]

Gen. John Jacob (1812-1858) formed Scinde Irregular Horse and was in command of Second Scinde Irregular Horse (known colloquially as 'Jacobs Horse').
While as I mentioned, the cavalry often used carbines such as the 2nd Pattern Victoria percussion carbine or the Paget carbine of Napoleonic period.
Jacob developed the 'Jacobs Double Barrel Rifle' in 1856 which had the unusual sword bayonet, which was as long as the carbine itself.
These are extremely rare , as few were made and they were never officially accepted for use in the Indian army.

However it is noted "a number of variations are encountered in the RANGE of Jacob's bayonets, and it appears that some volunteer regiments adopted the rifle and bayonet for use" ("The Collectors Pictorial Book of Bayonets", F.Stephens, 1971, #61 (p.37).

One such regiment was 1st Regt of Jacobs Rifles, which though obviously having nothing to do with the Scinde Cavalry suggests he (Jacob) had interests in foot units as well.

It seems that Jacob was a most innovative officer and clearly was designing various versions of the bayonet and the rifles being used.

The thing is, the government inspection stamp (crowned 2) as well as the distinct back fuller, suggesting this was a blade from a hanger (?)......the weapons to the EIC were not government inspected as this was a private enterprise.
Why would someone repurpose a hanger blade to produce a munitions grade bayonet?

Those are the concerns, while the other markings remain compelling.