Question regarding the origin of the grip construction on these European style swords

[Jim McDougall]

Absolutely locally made as suggested and one in one of the local shops around Machin Khana in Kabul. I have never seen evidence of these made in the assembly lines of that factory, but sub contracting of course in the same manner as in Solingen and most sword centers was certainly present.
There these hilts were also mounted on tribal 'Khyber knife' blades for forces of the local levees who were attached to the British army .

There were of course many Wilkinson swords about and the 'Star of Solomon' (not Masonic nor the Star of David) surround used to enclose proof marks on British officers swords was certainly copied. The Afghan army profoundly copied British uniforms (even kilts and Albert style helmets), used British arms and were heavily subsidized by the UK.

A good book to learn more on these times, ["The Great Game" by Peter Hopkirk gives full perspective of the conflicts and political circumstances there.

The shashka presence was primarily from Caucasian source, via of course the Russians. After the Murid Wars, there were many Caucasians in the ranks of the Russian army and the Caucasian officers often used their own shashkas.
The Cossack shashka of course evolved from these, but the rank and file regulation forms have nothing to do with Afghan shashkas.

[Norman McCormick]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

There these hilts were also mounted on tribal 'Khyber knife' blades for forces of the local levees who were attached to the British army .

Hi Jim,
This one of mine I would suggest falls into the above category. As you will notice it also has a totally pointless scabbard drag to further mimic European sword construction of the period.
My Regards,
Norman.

[Sakalord364]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Absolutely locally made as suggested and one in one of the local shops around Machin Khana in Kabul. I have never seen evidence of these made in the assembly lines of that factory, but sub contracting of course in the same manner as in Solingen and most sword centers was certainly present.
There these hilts were also mounted on tribal 'Khyber knife' blades for forces of the local levees who were attached to the British army .

There were of course many Wilkinson swords about and the 'Star of Solomon' (not Masonic nor the Star of David) surround used to enclose proof marks on British officers swords was certainly copied. The Afghan army profoundly copied British uniforms (even kilts and Albert style helmets), used British arms and were heavily subsidized by the UK.

A good book to learn more on these times, ["The Great Game" by Peter Hopkirk gives full perspective of the conflicts and political circumstances there.

The shashka presence was primarily from Caucasian source, via of course the Russians. After the Murid Wars, there were many Caucasians in the ranks of the Russian army and the Caucasian officers often used their own shashkas.
The Cossack shashka of course evolved from these, but the rank and file regulation forms have nothing to do with Afghan shashkas.

I’m sure the phenomenon of military style hilts attached to khyber blades was just a local fashion of the time

[Jim McDougall]

Indeed the phenomenon of military style hilts was an apparent popular convention of the period post Gandamak Treaty (1879) .As the British occupied Afghan regions nominally, and tribesmen of various Khyber region tribes with para military levees attached to the army often favored their own blades, these hybrid 'saylaawa' (=Khyber knife) were often seen.

Many of these hilted with the European style hits had the Mazar i Sharif stamp on the blade, presumably from hilting in these shops near the Kaar Khaana e Jangalak (Machin Khana) in Kabul.

The European military style hilt seems to have been known in degree in Afghan regions as Daoud Shah is seen wearing a sword with similar hilt design at the signing of the Treaty of Gandamak, May, 1879.
There were suggestions that this design was a pattern of 1889 regulation hilt, but as far as I have known that has never been substantiated.
These military style swords with this distinct hilt form seem to have produced in Kabul from 1893-1903 (I have one dated 1896) but it has not been clear which units used them.

[Sakalord364]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Indeed the phenomenon of military style hilts was an apparent popular convention of the period post Gandamak Treaty (1879) .As the British occupied Afghan regions nominally, and tribesmen of various Khyber region tribes with para military levees attached to the army often favored their own blades, these hybrid 'saylaawa' (=Khyber knife) were often seen.

Many of these hilted with the European style hits had the Mazar i Sharif stamp on the blade, presumably from hilting in these shops near the Kaar Khaana e Jangalak (Machin Khana) in Kabul.

The European military style hilt seems to have been known in degree in Afghan regions as Daoud Shah is seen wearing a sword with similar hilt design at the signing of the Treaty of Gandamak, May, 1879.
There were suggestions that this design was a pattern of 1889 regulation hilt, but as far as I have known that has never been substantiated.
These military style swords with this distinct hilt form seem to have produced in Kabul from 1893-1903 (I have one dated 1896) but it has not been clear which units used them.

The Kabul workshop was established sometime post 1881, with the most advanced European machinery arriving from 1887 onwards, so any Khyber with an arsenal stamp was produced when the British had long left Afghan soil.

I think I saw a while back here someone assume the rather unique blades of the Afghan military short swords were made in solingen for some reason but by 1893 the factory had state of the art European equipment, and had the potential to make blades up to a high standard. Afghanistan by this point was totally self sufficient in the making of edged weapons- however by the 1920s the factory fell into disrepair and knowledge regressed- swords from that point on have noticeably rougher etching on the blade, and much simpler fullers

[Jim McDougall]

The dates you note seem to be correct, and indeed the British were no longer occupying Afghan regions formally, but retained suzerainty while providing notable subsidy in various areas.

I am curious, you assert that the Afghans by virtue of the advanced manufacturing equipment were fully capable of producing these heavy, notably uniquely channeled blades by 1893....which seems the earliest date known for these military swords........have you found evidence that this equipment included that for producing sword blades? Most images I have seen of the factory works show the production of the Enfield rifles. The emphasis on the rifle production had once compelled me to think the similarity of the hilts design and construction aligned with that of British bayonets, but that notion also remains unproven.

As far as I am aware, the production lines at Machin Khana were geared toward production of Enfield rifles. I am unaware of such fullering on blades for swords of this type, except perhaps for European forces such as sappers, miners and artillery gunners. It seems I had heard suggestions these Afghan swords were intended for gunners, but they also have been suggested for other issue.

There were other shops in the area of the Machin Khana as I have understood which might have conducted assembly of these swords, and as they were accepted by the arsenal the state stamp of Mazir i Sharif placed on the blades. This seems likely given the fact that tribal Khyber blades are found with these hilts, and state stamped accordingly......the are Gurkha kukris known also stamped with the Mazir i Sharif mark, and obviously not produced there.

BTW, do you have Dmitry Milerosov's 2019 book on Afghan weapons?

Photo-my example date 1893

[Sakalord364]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

The dates you note seem to be correct, and indeed the British were no longer occupying Afghan regions formally, but retained suzerainty while providing notable subsidy in various areas.

I am curious, you assert that the Afghans by virtue of the advanced manufacturing equipment were fully capable of producing these heavy, notably uniquely channeled blades by 1893....which seems the earliest date known for these military swords........have you found evidence that this equipment included that for producing sword blades? Most images I have seen of the factory works show the production of the Enfield rifles. The emphasis on the rifle production had once compelled me to think the similarity of the hilts design and construction aligned with that of British bayonets, but that notion also remains unproven.

As far as I am aware, the production lines at Machin Khana were geared toward production of Enfield rifles. I am unaware of such fullering on blades for swords of this type, except perhaps for European forces such as sappers, miners and artillery gunners. It seems I had heard suggestions these Afghan swords were intended for gunners, but they also have been suggested for other issue.

There were other shops in the area of the Machin Khana as I have understood which might have conducted assembly of these swords, and as they were accepted by the arsenal the state stamp of Mazir i Sharif placed on the blades. This seems likely given the fact that tribal Khyber blades are found with these hilts, and state stamped accordingly......the are Gurkha kukris known also stamped with the Mazir i Sharif mark, and obviously not produced there.

BTW, do you have Dmitry Milerosov's 2019 book on Afghan weapons?

Photo-my example date 1893

Mind you there were quality control and production problems in the workshops due to a lack of wood to feed steam engines, but starting in 1887 the Afghans imported an entire small arms manufacturing ecosystem, they made martini Henry rifles, breechloading cannon, even Gatling guns. They also purchased half finished Krupp cannons and finished them in the Kabul workshops. Edged weapon manufacturing would have been much simpler. Many workers from British Indian factories of course were also brought there.

The English scholar NR Jenzen Jones will soon release a book on the Kabul arsenal, sadly his focus is on rifles and cannon, not edged weapons

As far as edged weapons go these are what were made:

Officers Sabres in the Russian style
Shashkas
Generic Mamluke style swords
British style Mamluke swords (fine details of the brass casting slightly inferior to a British made piece )
British pattern bayonets
And of course those unique short swords

[Sakalord364]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

The dates you note seem to be correct, and indeed the British were no longer occupying Afghan regions formally, but retained suzerainty while providing notable subsidy in various areas.

I am curious, you assert that the Afghans by virtue of the advanced manufacturing equipment were fully capable of producing these heavy, notably uniquely channeled blades by 1893....which seems the earliest date known for these military swords........have you found evidence that this equipment included that for producing sword blades? Most images I have seen of the factory works show the production of the Enfield rifles. The emphasis on the rifle production had once compelled me to think the similarity of the hilts design and construction aligned with that of British bayonets, but that notion also remains unproven.

As far as I am aware, the production lines at Machin Khana were geared toward production of Enfield rifles. I am unaware of such fullering on blades for swords of this type, except perhaps for European forces such as sappers, miners and artillery gunners. It seems I had heard suggestions these Afghan swords were intended for gunners, but they also have been suggested for other issue.

There were other shops in the area of the Machin Khana as I have understood which might have conducted assembly of these swords, and as they were accepted by the arsenal the state stamp of Mazir i Sharif placed on the blades. This seems likely given the fact that tribal Khyber blades are found with these hilts, and state stamped accordingly......the are Gurkha kukris known also stamped with the Mazir i Sharif mark, and obviously not produced there.

BTW, do you have Dmitry Milerosov's 2019 book on Afghan weapons?

Photo-my example date 1893

I might also add that the design of these sword blades is unique, and so are the hilts, being a combination of some generic British handle with an Indian style finger guard. Then again the Afghan shashka is also unique to Afghanistan- the late 19th century was a very interesting time in the world of Afghan edged weapons- it would have been exceedingly simple for the Afghan ruler to draw up a contract with Wilkinson or whatever manufacturing house to provide him with all the swords and bayonets he needed but he seems to have made an effort to make it all domestically.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Sakalord364

I might also add that the design of these sword blades is unique, and so are the hilts, being a combination of some generic British handle with an Indian style finger guard. Then again the Afghan shashka is also unique to Afghanistan- the late 19th century was a very interesting time in the world of Afghan edged weapons- it would have been exceedingly simple for the Afghan ruler to draw up a contract with Wilkinson or whatever manufacturing house to provide him with all the swords and bayonets he needed but he seems to have made an effort to make it all domestically.

This is all exceptional information, and much appreciated, you are clearly very well informed. Honestly I am delighted to find that these edged weapons (and thank you for the itemized list) were indeed made at the Machin Khana. I had never been able to find proof that was the case.
As ALWAYS, the emphasis is on guns with edged weapons seldom meriting mention as with most military oriented literature.

I am thrilled to hear of this upcoming book, and hope you will keep us informed on how to obtain when released. I presume though the focus is on firearms, the details on swords regardless how minimal are mentioned as suggested.

Good to know these blades on the Afghan military swords are unique as I had suspected, so your confirmation is appreciated. Also that the hilts were based on some British design (I had mentioned similarity to a sword bayonet hilt). I once tried to reach Wilkinson to discover if they in fact had any part in these hilts being so close to bayonet style, but no useful response was forthcoming.
In these times Wilkinson had plenty of contracts supplying India as well as Abyssinia, so it does not seem it would have been a problem, but if the Khan chose otherwise.

The Afghan shashka would of course have been unique to Afghanistan, however these have often been deemed Uzbek, which is rather a vague differentiation which I have yet to follow the particulars. Note fluted scabbard component similar to those on paluoars.

If the British pattern bayonets were being produced there, wonder if the components were interchangeable for the grip, pommel, and ferrule?
Some of these military hilts have had different guards, and on occasion it seems similar to paluoar types.