Comments/Opinions on keris singa barong

BluErf · 11th July 2006, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

The ball under the paw signifies that the guardian is male.

You will note that the other guardian has a baby under her paw and is female.

Thanks Bill, but is there significance as to why the male lion is holding on to the ball? Does the ball itself represent some object or idea?

Rick · 11th July 2006, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

Thanks Bill, but is there significance as to why the male lion is holding on to the ball? Does the ball itself represent some object or idea?

My 2 cents ; the Singa is a guardian figure ; the ball under his paw (or in his mouth) may represent the Chinese mythological Dragon Pearl .

Your mileage may vary .

A. G. Maisey · 11th July 2006, 11:19 PM

It is not possible for me to say if this keris blade is old, or recent, only by looking at a photo.

However, I would comment that the rondha, and the fine detail of the kikik are remarkably perfect for a keris that displays considerable erosion to areas of the rest of the blade.The sides of the gonjo show erosion of the weld layers, but the form of the rondha is completely uneroded.

In this world, we mostly get what we pay for.

I would suggest that you consider the source and the cost of this keris and weigh that information against what you have in your hand.

Mudi · 12th July 2006, 03:40 AM

Keris Bali written by Ida Bagus Dibia shows many keris with blade shorter than 40 to 48 cm. A peksi of 7.6 cm for this keris would be normal.

nechesh · 12th July 2006, 04:08 AM

Mudi, what other reasons do you have for believing this to be a Balinese keris other that the size of the pesi. I have certainly seen a 3" pesi on Javanese blades of this size.

Mudi · 12th July 2006, 04:29 AM

My father is Bugis but my mother is from Denpasar Bali. So I grow up with both culture. Each very different. The photo is not real sharp on my computer. I am not certain this is keris di Bali. I just offered suggestion that it could be from Bali. If I can find time, I will show some like this from Pak Dibia?s book or maybe from some keris Bali in our collection. Pak Dibia?s book shows many sarong just like this one. Also, many Balinese or Hindu Javanese are still in east Java. Same is with Lombok were keris made there cannot be certain if keris Lombok or keris Bali. In Indonesia all keris are brothers or family, so cannot always tell exactly where or what Empu made the keris.

nechesh · 12th July 2006, 04:55 AM

Well, the sarong looks East Javanese to me. Of course that is no assurance of the origins of the blade itself. No doubt you will still find communities of Balinese in East Jawa, but i would not compare this situation with Bali and Lombak. If i am not mistaken, the Balinese court actually once ruled over Lombak. This would not be the case in Jawa. That would have a very strong influence of the type of keris made in Lombok. That same Bali court influence did not exist in Jawa. Keris throughout Indonesia certainly are related and you are right to point out that at times it can be difficult to determine origin. I will take your statement one step further and suggest that unless one has strong provenence for a keris (which is rare) one can never know for sure what mpu made it. It is generally much easier to tell what area a keris is from. Still.....sometimes not.

I asked you the question because to me this appears to be a keris form well known to Jawa that was presented in East Jawa dress. The surface of this keris appears to be rough from etching, not polished as i understand is the tradition for Bali keris. I suppose it could be a Bali keris that has been kept in a Javanese manner, but i would just be guessing there. So i asked the question why you thought it might be Balinese because i thought you might have some substantial reasoning.

VANDOO · 12th July 2006, 04:54 AM

THE PEARL WAS SAID TO BE THE TEARS OF THE MOON AND SOME WERE SWALLOWED BY OYSTERS ,SOME WERE TAKEN UP BY DRAGONS AS THEIR MOST PRECIOUS POSSESION AND WERE CALLED PEARLS OF WISDOM WHEN IN THE DRAGONS POSSESION. THEY FIGURE IN A LOT OF OLD CHINESE LEGENDS THERE IS EVEN ONE ABOUT A FAMOUS DRAGON AND ITS PEARL THAT LIVED ON TOP OF MOUNT. KINABALU IN BORNEO. DRAGONS ARE OFTEN SEEN PURSUING THE FIRE PEARL IN CHINESE ART AND THE LION IN THE LION DANCE IS OFTEN TEASED BY A MAN WITH ONE DURING THE DANCE.
OFTEN IN CHINA THERE IS A STONE BALL IN THE MOUTHS OF THE GAURDIAN LIONS BY GATES AND DOORS IT IS GOOD LUCK TO SPIN IT 3 TIMES(IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY) BEFORE ENTERING AND IT IS SAID IF YOU CAN REMOVE IT IT WILL TURN TO GOLD. SO I WOULD SAY THE LION OR TIGER (IT DOES HAVE STRIPES

) STANDS FOR POWER ,THE GOLD BALL FOR LUCK, WHISDOM AND PROSPERITY AND THE TYPE OF PARMOR ,BLADE SHAPE AND NUMBER OF LUKS WILL ALSO ADD TO ITS POWERS. UNFORTUNATELY I AM NOT A SCHOLAR OF THE KERIS BUT THIS WILL GIVE THE LAYMAN SOME IDEA OF THE SYMBOLISM AND POWERS THEY ARE BELIEVED TO HAVE AND WHY THEY ARE CONSIDERED SO VALUABLE AND IMPORTANT.

BluErf · 12th July 2006, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

OFTEN IN CHINA THERE IS A STONE BALL IN THE MOUTHS OF THE GAURDIAN LIONS BY GATES AND DOORS IT IS GOOD LUCK TO SPIN IT 3 TIMES(IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY) BEFORE ENTERING AND IT IS SAID IF YOU CAN REMOVE IT IT WILL TURN TO GOLD. SO I WOULD SAY THE LION OR TIGER (IT DOES HAVE STRIPES

) STANDS FOR POWER ,THE GOLD BALL FOR LUCK, WHISDOM AND PROSPERITY AND THE TYPE OF PARMOR ,BLADE SHAPE AND NUMBER OF LUKS WILL ALSO ADD TO ITS POWERS.

Thanks Vandoo. You know more about these things than I did, and I'm Chinese.

Next time I see a stone lion with a ball in it's mouth, I'll go spin it!

BluErf · 12th July 2006, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

It is not possible for me to say if this keris blade is old, or recent, only by looking at a photo.

However, I would comment that the rondha, and the fine detail of the kikik are remarkably perfect for a keris that displays considerable erosion to areas of the rest of the blade.The sides of the gonjo show erosion of the weld layers, but the form of the rondha is completely uneroded.

In this world, we mostly get what we pay for.

I would suggest that you consider the source and the cost of this keris and weigh that information against what you have in your hand.

Yes, the good condition of the rondha and the kikik (I suppose he does look more kikik than singa barong) compared to the corrosion of the sor-soran struck me immediately when I first saw the keris. The ganja could be a replacement, and I also thought the kikik could have been new parmor material welded onto an old blade. However, when I look at the pamor lines between the kikik and the rest of the blade, I do not see broken lines that would have suggested the welding of a separate piece to the blade. The maker could have made the keris and artificially corroded the sor-soran area, except for the kikik. Either way, it is a very interesting thing to ponder over.

This keris is not too expensive, and I don't have any information on it apart from what I have observed.

However, I wouldn't completely agree with the bit about "mostly get what we pay for". There are many examples of people paying too much for a keris, and people selling some of their great pieces too cheaply.

BluErf · 12th July 2006, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

My 2 cents ; the Singa is a guardian figure ; the ball under his paw (or in his mouth) may represent the Chinese mythological Dragon Pearl .

Your mileage may vary .

Hmmm... does that mean the lion stole the pearl from a dragon?

11th July 2006, 11:19 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	It is not possible for me to say if this keris blade is old, or recent, only by looking at a photo. However, I would comment that the rondha, and the fine detail of the kikik are remarkably perfect for a keris that displays considerable erosion to areas of the rest of the blade.The sides of the gonjo show erosion of the weld layers, but the form of the rondha is completely uneroded. In this world, we mostly get what we pay for. I would suggest that you consider the source and the cost of this keris and weigh that information against what you have in your hand.

12th July 2006, 03:40 AM	#4
Mudi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Makassar, (Ujung Pandang), Sulawesi, Indonesia Posts: 38	Keris Bali written by Ida Bagus Dibia shows many keris with blade shorter than 40 to 48 cm. A peksi of 7.6 cm for this keris would be normal.

12th July 2006, 04:08 AM	#5
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Mudi, what other reasons do you have for believing this to be a Balinese keris other that the size of the pesi. I have certainly seen a 3" pesi on Javanese blades of this size.

12th July 2006, 04:29 AM	#6
Mudi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Makassar, (Ujung Pandang), Sulawesi, Indonesia Posts: 38	My father is Bugis but my mother is from Denpasar Bali. So I grow up with both culture. Each very different. The photo is not real sharp on my computer. I am not certain this is keris di Bali. I just offered suggestion that it could be from Bali. If I can find time, I will show some like this from Pak Dibia?s book or maybe from some keris Bali in our collection. Pak Dibia?s book shows many sarong just like this one. Also, many Balinese or Hindu Javanese are still in east Java. Same is with Lombok were keris made there cannot be certain if keris Lombok or keris Bali. In Indonesia all keris are brothers or family, so cannot always tell exactly where or what Empu made the keris.

12th July 2006, 04:55 AM	#7
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Well, the sarong looks East Javanese to me. Of course that is no assurance of the origins of the blade itself. No doubt you will still find communities of Balinese in East Jawa, but i would not compare this situation with Bali and Lombak. If i am not mistaken, the Balinese court actually once ruled over Lombak. This would not be the case in Jawa. That would have a very strong influence of the type of keris made in Lombok. That same Bali court influence did not exist in Jawa. Keris throughout Indonesia certainly are related and you are right to point out that at times it can be difficult to determine origin. I will take your statement one step further and suggest that unless one has strong provenence for a keris (which is rare) one can never know for sure what mpu made it. It is generally much easier to tell what area a keris is from. Still.....sometimes not. I asked you the question because to me this appears to be a keris form well known to Jawa that was presented in East Jawa dress. The surface of this keris appears to be rough from etching, not polished as i understand is the tradition for Bali keris. I suppose it could be a Bali keris that has been kept in a Javanese manner, but i would just be guessing there. So i asked the question why you thought it might be Balinese because i thought you might have some substantial reasoning.

12th July 2006, 04:54 AM	#8
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THE PEARL WAS SAID TO BE THE TEARS OF THE MOON AND SOME WERE SWALLOWED BY OYSTERS ,SOME WERE TAKEN UP BY DRAGONS AS THEIR MOST PRECIOUS POSSESION AND WERE CALLED PEARLS OF WISDOM WHEN IN THE DRAGONS POSSESION. THEY FIGURE IN A LOT OF OLD CHINESE LEGENDS THERE IS EVEN ONE ABOUT A FAMOUS DRAGON AND ITS PEARL THAT LIVED ON TOP OF MOUNT. KINABALU IN BORNEO. DRAGONS ARE OFTEN SEEN PURSUING THE FIRE PEARL IN CHINESE ART AND THE LION IN THE LION DANCE IS OFTEN TEASED BY A MAN WITH ONE DURING THE DANCE. OFTEN IN CHINA THERE IS A STONE BALL IN THE MOUTHS OF THE GAURDIAN LIONS BY GATES AND DOORS IT IS GOOD LUCK TO SPIN IT 3 TIMES(IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY) BEFORE ENTERING AND IT IS SAID IF YOU CAN REMOVE IT IT WILL TURN TO GOLD. SO I WOULD SAY THE LION OR TIGER (IT DOES HAVE STRIPES ) STANDS FOR POWER ,THE GOLD BALL FOR LUCK, WHISDOM AND PROSPERITY AND THE TYPE OF PARMOR ,BLADE SHAPE AND NUMBER OF LUKS WILL ALSO ADD TO ITS POWERS. UNFORTUNATELY I AM NOT A SCHOLAR OF THE KERIS BUT THIS WILL GIVE THE LAYMAN SOME IDEA OF THE SYMBOLISM AND POWERS THEY ARE BELIEVED TO HAVE AND WHY THEY ARE CONSIDERED SO VALUABLE AND IMPORTANT.