Weapons of the Lake Van Highlands

AvtoGaz · 17th March 2024, 04:18 AM

I have uncovered new information indicating that flintlock weapons were widely produced in the region, contrary to information provided by Petoyan, and came in a multitude of variations. The below segment is translated directly from HM Poghosyans "History of Sasun", p. 118.

If any experts of Ottoman firearms have any information on these variations which they could share, I would greatly appreciate it. Any information will go a long way in this research.

"From very old times the people of Sasun produced Chakhmakhli firearms for defense, which the inhabitants of the mountains called "Tvng". The firearms owned by the people came in different shapes and sizes. The Sasunians called their different types of firearms "Majar", "Shashkhan", "Tersmi", "Stambuli", "Navhulu", etc."

Here is what I have gathered from this information. Again, any extra information and insight would be greatly appreciated.

1: Majar: This word is an archaic way of saying "Hungarian", aka Magyar. Must refer to a Hungarian type of flintlock?
2: Shashkhan: Perhaps referring to Shishane guns?
3: Tersmi: Most likely, I think it refers to guns from Dersim, or produced in Dersim style (Which I am personally not aware of).
4: Stambuli: Pretty obviously referring to guns from Istanbul
5: Navhulu: Not the faintest of an idea what this could be referring to.

This is nothing all that out of the ordinary. In nearby Georgia, many local weapons bore names of faraway geographic areas as well (Pranguli, or French, Swords. Khirimi, or Crimean, guns were widely known in Georgia). It is now just a case of isolating and finding examples of this rich variety of weaponry. Once again, any help would be greatly appreciated.

AvtoGaz · 4th April 2024, 10:19 AM

I wanted to talk a bit more about martial arts and training in this area, as well as arms production.

Most sources I am reading nowadays seem to suggest that arms production was at a very high level here. Especially in the sub-region of Talvorik in Sasun, where metal was extracted. Incidentally, this was also the region of Sasun most independent from Kurdish influence, said to have boasted the bravest men. According to an ethnographer who visited the region in 1895, the weapons produced in Sasun were very well known, not just in the highland districts, but in the neighboring lowland regions as well. According to them, the locally produced "Shashkhan" guns were the most prized item that hailed from this region. For more information and sources, see my medium post linked above.

Besides the aforementioned "Sword and Martal" ritualistic fencing, training exercises and dueling forms with Sword and Buckler are described with their own names in the dictionary of Sasun dialectical words in Petoyan's book. To train with Sword and Buckler is known as "Martalug", while the regular (not ritual) friendly fencing game in Sasun was known as Martlutse. Interestingly, these words have roughly the same meaning as another, much more well-known form of fencing found in nearby Georgia, Khevsur Parikaoba. "Pari" refers to the local Khevsur buckler shield, and "aoba" refers to an action as I understand it (please correct me if I am wrong). In a similar vein, "Martal" refers to the Van Highlanders buckler, and "ug" roughly refers to an action.

Interestingly, some photographs of locals from these areas using bows have been preserved. Based on one of the photos, I would guess children trained with these before moving on to firearms.

Pictured below:
1: Armenians from Van (if you look carefully, you can see they are carrying bows).
2 and 3: Assyrian Tribesmen from Hakkari

wildwolberine · 6th April 2024, 06:33 PM

Would definitely be interested in more information about their archery equipment. I assume they are self bows?

AvtoGaz · 8th April 2024, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wildwolberine

Would definitely be interested in more information about their archery equipment. I assume they are self bows?

As I understand it, yes. They were mostly used by youngsters for training, before they moved onto firearms.

wildwolberine · 14th April 2024, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AvtoGaz

As I understand it, yes. They were mostly used by youngsters for training, before they moved onto firearms.

Thank you!

gp · 2nd September 2024, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AvtoGaz

I wanted to talk a bit more about martial arts and training in this area, as well as arms production.

Most sources I am reading nowadays seem to suggest that arms production was at a very high level here. Especially in the sub-region of Talvorik in Sasun, where metal was extracted. Incidentally, this was also the region of Sasun most independent from Kurdish influence, said to have boasted the bravest men. According to an ethnographer who visited the region in 1895, the weapons produced in Sasun were very well known, not just in the highland districts, but in the neighboring lowland regions as well. According to them, the locally produced "Shashkhan" guns were the most prized item that hailed from this region. For more information and sources, see my medium post linked above.

Besides the aforementioned "Sword and Martal" ritualistic fencing, training exercises and dueling forms with Sword and Buckler are described with their own names in the dictionary of Sasun dialectical words in Petoyan's book. To train with Sword and Buckler is known as "Martalug", while the regular (not ritual) friendly fencing game in Sasun was known as Martlutse. Interestingly, these words have roughly the same meaning as another, much more well-known form of fencing found in nearby Georgia, Khevsur Parikaoba. "Pari" refers to the local Khevsur buckler shield, and "aoba" refers to an action as I understand it (please correct me if I am wrong). In a similar vein, "Martal" refers to the Van Highlanders buckler, and "ug" roughly refers to an action.

Interestingly, some photographs of locals from these areas using bows have been preserved. Based on one of the photos, I would guess children trained with these before moving on to firearms.

Pictured below:
1: Armenians from Van (if you look carefully, you can see they are carrying bows).
2 and 3: Assyrian Tribesmen from Hakkari

thank you very much for this most interesting info! ( as I had years ago in Turkey a very nice acquaintance from Van)

Some more info for those interested :

https://x.com/NenosNshemoon/status/1109267400174624768

http://www.shlama.be/shlama/content/view/222/188/

and their neighbours the Tyari or AKA Tyareh

http://www.tyareh.org/photo-gallery.html

17th March 2024, 04:18 AM	#1
AvtoGaz Member Join Date: Dec 2022 Posts: 36	I have uncovered new information indicating that flintlock weapons were widely produced in the region, contrary to information provided by Petoyan, and came in a multitude of variations. The below segment is translated directly from HM Poghosyans "History of Sasun", p. 118. If any experts of Ottoman firearms have any information on these variations which they could share, I would greatly appreciate it. Any information will go a long way in this research. "From very old times the people of Sasun produced Chakhmakhli firearms for defense, which the inhabitants of the mountains called "Tvng". The firearms owned by the people came in different shapes and sizes. The Sasunians called their different types of firearms "Majar", "Shashkhan", "Tersmi", "Stambuli", "Navhulu", etc." Here is what I have gathered from this information. Again, any extra information and insight would be greatly appreciated. 1: Majar: This word is an archaic way of saying "Hungarian", aka Magyar. Must refer to a Hungarian type of flintlock? 2: Shashkhan: Perhaps referring to Shishane guns? 3: Tersmi: Most likely, I think it refers to guns from Dersim, or produced in Dersim style (Which I am personally not aware of). 4: Stambuli: Pretty obviously referring to guns from Istanbul 5: Navhulu: Not the faintest of an idea what this could be referring to. This is nothing all that out of the ordinary. In nearby Georgia, many local weapons bore names of faraway geographic areas as well (Pranguli, or French, Swords. Khirimi, or Crimean, guns were widely known in Georgia). It is now just a case of isolating and finding examples of this rich variety of weaponry. Once again, any help would be greatly appreciated. Attached Images

4th April 2024, 10:19 AM	#2
AvtoGaz Member Join Date: Dec 2022 Posts: 36	I wanted to talk a bit more about martial arts and training in this area, as well as arms production. Most sources I am reading nowadays seem to suggest that arms production was at a very high level here. Especially in the sub-region of Talvorik in Sasun, where metal was extracted. Incidentally, this was also the region of Sasun most independent from Kurdish influence, said to have boasted the bravest men. According to an ethnographer who visited the region in 1895, the weapons produced in Sasun were very well known, not just in the highland districts, but in the neighboring lowland regions as well. According to them, the locally produced "Shashkhan" guns were the most prized item that hailed from this region. For more information and sources, see my medium post linked above. Besides the aforementioned "Sword and Martal" ritualistic fencing, training exercises and dueling forms with Sword and Buckler are described with their own names in the dictionary of Sasun dialectical words in Petoyan's book. To train with Sword and Buckler is known as "Martalug", while the regular (not ritual) friendly fencing game in Sasun was known as Martlutse. Interestingly, these words have roughly the same meaning as another, much more well-known form of fencing found in nearby Georgia, Khevsur Parikaoba. "Pari" refers to the local Khevsur buckler shield, and "aoba" refers to an action as I understand it (please correct me if I am wrong). In a similar vein, "Martal" refers to the Van Highlanders buckler, and "ug" roughly refers to an action. Interestingly, some photographs of locals from these areas using bows have been preserved. Based on one of the photos, I would guess children trained with these before moving on to firearms. Pictured below: 1: Armenians from Van (if you look carefully, you can see they are carrying bows). 2 and 3: Assyrian Tribesmen from Hakkari Attached Images

6th April 2024, 06:33 PM	#3
wildwolberine Member Join Date: May 2023 Location: San Antonio Posts: 120	Would definitely be interested in more information about their archery equipment. I assume they are self bows?