The Purpose of Keris Panjang

[milandro]

Originally Posted by rahman

It is also worth noting that the keris panjang described in the Hikayat Hang Tuah and Sejarah Melayu is different from the ones we see today. The keris panjang in the classics was sued as a slashing weapon, not as a stabber.

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Due to the purchase of a panjan I have developed an interest in this weapon hence the resurrection of a couple of threads.

If the Panjang was the Indonesian rapier equivalent was this a weapon intended to perform as a slashing weapon, as well as a thrusting weapon ?

I read that the weapon that many consider only a status weapon , the Panjang, was actually used but wouldn't it need to be sharpened on the double edge?

I would like to hear some MORE well informed opinions, and even more I would like a video to show the handling of a Panjang as a weapon to thrust or slash or both. There are many videos on YouTube on other weapons but I failed to find this one.

[David]

Originally Posted by milandro

Due to the purchase of a panjan I have developed an interest in this weapon hence the resurrection of a couple of threads.

If the Panjang was the Indonesian rapier equivalent was this a weapon intended to perform as a slashing weapon, as well as a thrusting weapon ?

I read that the weapon that many consider only a status weapon , the Panjang, was actually used but wouldn't it need to be sharpened on the double edge?

I would like to hear some MORE well informed opinions, and even more I would like a video to show the handling of a Panjang as a weapon to thrust or slash or both. There are many videos on YouTube on other weapons but I failed to find this one.

I don't know of any evidence that would support the use of the panjang as a slashing weapon, nor do i believe you are likely to find any videos showing it used as a weapon. I have heard the story that it was developed because of the European rapier and i don't completely dismiss that possibility, though i also have not seen any specific evidence of it either. But even if it were, i don't believe it was ever intended to function like a rapier. The first thing we need to consider if we are even going to entertain this notion is the length of the tang and the means by which the blade is connected to the hilt. There is simply no way a keris panjang could be used as a dueling weapon with any practicality. The pesi would simply break under the pressure of slashing or clashing with another blade or the blade itself would simply fly out of its hilt.
I believe that first and foremost the panjang was a status weapon. This can be partly supported simply by the fact that there aren't nearly as many of them as their are normal length keris. It is not an everyman's keris, but one that would be carried by someone with some level of higher societial status. Of course this is only what seems logical to me, not something i can refer to any specific reference material on. I don't know that it has really been a subject that has been investigated all that much though.
Now, the panjang has been called an executioner's keris for some time, so this might point to a practical application, though not an actual martial one. My own thoughts on this are not that the panjang was specifically designed or intended for executions, but rather that it is a person of status that would have the authority to execute someone and therefore that type of blade might have been employed that way. Given the method of inserting the tip of the blade downward at the clavicle though to the heart to perform execution, the long blade of the panjang would probably serve well for this without the need for it to be particularly edge sharp. But i doubt that the vast majority of keris panjang were never used in that manner.

[milandro]

the Keris Panjang may very well have been used predominately as a ceremonial weapon, yet the construction, at least of the one I have, is one of a true weapon (as many western ceremonial weapons too have ) with a fuller running in the center ( with two consequent risers to give rigidity) almost the whole length of the blade and a forte with a long sogokan to strengthen the blade where it matters for use that may support at least some slashing intentions. Did I mention that the blade appears to be hardened? The legend of the execution is supported by very few accounts and it doesn't take a great anatomist to see that a 35cm blade would be more than apt to pierce the heart from the shoulder collar bone , so, making mine a 65cm blade is , quite literally, an overkill!


True the tang, the pesi, won't be long and wide enough though. to support much slashing .


This is my Panjang. It came with a king fisher hilt which I don't think it is the proper one and so I am replacing it (see other thread on the Pattani hilts on panjangs).


about videos, there are many silat video's displaying fighting techniques on you tube, it is always possible that some would show Panjang use.

on you tube you can also see videos from Malay makers and you see how condiderably simpler the construction of more modern Panjang is let alone the fact that the modern ones seem often to show pamor which the older ones don't have

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAqdWEHhvV4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlEesFQyamg&t=747s

[David]

That's a really beautiful panjang Milandro. I love that really unusual greneng variation. I have never seen that before. Someone (not me LOL!) might be able to pinpoint the origin of this blade with that clue. I'm thinking perhaps more Peninsula than Sumatra.
Neither of the panjang shown in the videos have hilts that are generally seen on old panjang as far as i know, but there is probably some variation depending on originating culture. Here is my example.

[Pendita65]

Could not resist after seeing these beauties to share my Keris. I bought it and the blade could not go inside with the last ten cm. After close inspection at home it turned out the warangka was reglued wrong. Had to take it of from the gander repair the lips that go inside the warangka and reguleren it all together. It has a greenish horn warangka and tip on the bottom. Silver cup.

Regards from Amsterdam.

Martin

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by milandro

.... and you see how condiderably simpler the construction of more modern Panjang is let alone the fact that the modern ones seem often to show pamor which the older ones don't have.

That is so not true! There are antique panjang blades with pamor like you can see by one of my examples.

[milandro]

well, obviously , as you show, there are some examples such as these .

Interesting though the fact that the blades with pamor in the examples above seem to show no fuller and construction similar to the modern example with pamor. Maybe some forging reason why that is?

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by milandro

well, obviously , as you show, there are some examples such as these .

Interesting though the fact that the blades with pamor in the examples above seem to show no fuller and construction similar to the modern example with pamor. Maybe some forging reason why that is?

I frankly have no clue! I only know that the construction is called kapit, see here for more info: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=panjang

Regards,
Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

When a pamor blade is made it is usually made of a very thin steel core and with a plate of pamor material welded to each face of the steel core.

If deep fullers & other carving is added to the blade it will cut through the pamor plates and expose the plain material of the core, thus losing the enhancement of pamor.

We see pretty much the same thing with Javanese & Balinese blades, it comes down to whether we want a blade with pamor or a blade with carved enhancements.

There is a way of making a blade where we can have our cake & eat it too, & that is to make the entire central body of the blade of pamor material, & then weld an edge into this pamor, but this method of construction is very seldom encountered, & I have not seen a blade made in this way that is younger than a couple of hundred years old.

The word "kapit" is Malay, it means to support on each side. My understanding of this word when applied to keris is that it refers to a blade that has had part of the blade rivetted to the other part of the blade. However, I guess that it could also apply to a pamor blade, because the core of a pamor blade is supported on either side by the pamor material.