Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons
FAQ Calendar Today's Posts Search

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 21st February 2024, 08:44 AM   #1
Ian
Vikingsword Staff
 
Ian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Aussie Bush
Posts: 4,362
Default

Peter,

You have laid out a lengthy argument for your case that the palash influenced nimcha styles. I think this deserves a more scholarly setting than our humble forum. Have you considered writing this for a journal? I'm not sure of the appropriate place for such an article, but perhaps our forumites might suggest one for you.

Regards,

Ian
Ian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd February 2024, 12:56 AM   #2
Peter Hudson
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 315
Default

This thread is almost tied to http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21833 where many other clues are situated. I reccommend both threads be viewed as there are overlapping and interlinked posts showing fine details of the design influence now being closely observed...As an example of the relevant links here is what could well be the original hilt form of Nimcha swords across all the recognised types. Some accounts describe the shape as a horse head and I do not disagree on that. Clearly the blade has been replaced in all the variants I have viewed and there are different regional variations on add ons alterations and materials on the hilts and Quillons and Knuckleguards but the basic form is retained.

Quote" Pallasch; Culture: blade - Italian, Milan (with Ottoman decorations), mount - Ottoman, vessel (Hilt?) - Morocco
Dated: 16th Century
Material and Technique: blade of iron, forged, etched and engraved grip of iron, wood, horn
Measurement: total length of 107.7cm; blade 93.9cm; weight 1817g

Elector Christian I of Saxony received the saber as a gift in 1587 by Francesco I de ‘Medici, Grand Duke of Tuscany. This weapon is one in many respects to the peculiarities of the Turkish Chamber. First and foremost, the impressive appearance is mentioned, which is caused by the massive, ornate edged blade.

This saber is made of very different work areas. While the vessel(hilt?) is from Morocco and the typical form there corresponds with strongly angled work and s-shaped quillons, the blade is an Italian work. She has been a chosen, and was crowned Pi marked accordingly in Milan. (what is Pi ?)

The blade was then decorated in the Orient. The etched and partly engraved decoration consists of medallions with stripes and scrolls, flowers and leaves. The middle stripe is a Spanish inscription found in a secret script-like character.

How did this strange mixture of different origins (come about) is not yet clear. Could possibly play in the events following the reconquest of Spain by 1492. Many Spanish Jews left the country after the conquest of Granada and moved some of North Africa in the dominion of the Ottomans."Unquote.

Source & Copyright: Staatliche Kunstsammlungen Dresden.

When I wrote up this reference I had not suspected as I now do that the influence into and across The Indian Ocean and Mediterranean was because of Ottoman expeditions in those regions however I now have a clearer view that this is the case. It remains a staggering fact that almost 50 styles of Nimcha are shown in Butins charts and that there are even more cloned hilts not yet assessed.

Peter Hudson. Name:  DSC_0051pallaschbig.JPG
Views: 5028
Size:  221.1 KB

Last edited by Peter Hudson; 22nd February 2024 at 01:28 AM.
Peter Hudson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd February 2024, 01:50 AM   #3
Peter Hudson
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 315
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian View Post
Peter,

You have laid out a lengthy argument for your case that the palash influenced nimcha styles. I think this deserves a more scholarly setting than our humble forum. Have you considered writing this for a journal? I'm not sure of the appropriate place for such an article, but perhaps our forumites might suggest one for you.

Regards,

Ian
Dear Ian, For the time being I am pleased to leave this work in the realms of Forum for discussion but welcome your remarks . In my 40 yers in Oman I was intrigued by this sword form as well as the Omani Sayf , and Kittarah etc and the general situation in Zanzibar. I am convinced that The Indian Ocean is key historically to much of the conundrum but especially that surrounding the Nimcha style. Previously no one considered the common language of spoken arabic (The Cultural Effect) as central to the solution on design copying on weapons, however, almost everything was copied and subject to this phenomena...Thank you for your support.
Peter Hudson.
Peter Hudson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd February 2024, 11:58 AM   #4
Peter Hudson
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 315
Default The Swords of Oman and Zanzibar Inspired by Saaid The Great.

Saaid The Great ruled Oman and Zanzibar during the early to mid 19thC from about 1804 to 1856. Several well known design features entered the history books either invented by him or inspired through one of his wives...including The Royal Turbanand Royal Cammerbund, The Royal Hilt on his adopted 7 ringer Khanjarand given his name, and the same style of hilt given to the Royal form of the old Omani Battle Sword called Sayf Yemani. In addition a sword with sharpened on both edges and carrying a long almost tubular hilt was placed by him as an item for dancing showing off its flexibility and being included in the famous national treasureThe Funun This dancer also became a heraldic and military presentation appearing on march past gatherings and at weddings and adorned with the shield...The Omani Terrs ...It was given the honour of being present at important meetings and at bothe Eids and as well as occasionally being highly decorated in silver adornments it could also meet the demands of the mass market in a much less expensive form and was still loved by the people. Saaiid moved the Omani Capital city to Zanzibar in about 1830 and transformed the Islands into a collosal herb growing region...and removed with others the Portuguese invaders chasing them south to Mozambique etc. Zanzibar became a massive trading and slave Hub and in about 1840 another sword appeared which was a single crved blade which Saaiid The Great gave the same Omani Long Hilt and as a shield the same Omani Terrs. The sword had a multi role purpose not only as a formidable weapon but as a badge of office seen on the waists of Omani slave traders passing through the Omani friendly Bunyoro Kittarah which incidentally was where the blade had been noticed on swords probably of German origin ... Cavalry swords... It marked the Omani hunters and Traders from a great distance as having permission ...right of passage and safety from attack was thus assured. Pictures of Omani individuals are sketched in the Zanzibar slave markets equiped with these weapons often with the Terrs slung over their backs and armed with Omani Kittarah as they became known.

Meanwhile the Navy needing a cutlass weapon and having seen the Nimcha styles we know existed through illustration ; the hilts... stiched in with silver thread or hammered in on a hot anvil...Some delicacy is required as the minute floral decorations on the actual Tughra are repeated on the copied stylistic quillons on the anvil..These were dynastic swords and this is what he must have ordered... He wanted his name on them... In fact his Tughra .
And although not on all weapons there are certainly a great number that carry this insinignia. See below.

I have described the Cultural process on this thread... through the use of one singular Lingua Franka (Spoken Arabic.)..common to most players.
Attached Images
      

Last edited by Peter Hudson; 22nd February 2024 at 12:32 PM.
Peter Hudson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd February 2024, 12:04 PM   #5
Peter Hudson
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 315
Default

For Clarity here again is the detail...showing the Omani Dancer/ The Omani Sayf with the Rulers Tughra.
Attached Images
  

Last edited by Peter Hudson; 22nd February 2024 at 12:27 PM.
Peter Hudson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd February 2024, 12:09 PM   #6
Peter Hudson
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 315
Default

Name:  1419696275_1.jpg
Views: 4208
Size:  77.4 KB

Name:  thumbnail_images (91).jpg
Views: 4061
Size:  11.9 KB

Just adding a few words about the applied decoration and what I have identified as a sort of Royal Signature on Omani and Zanzibari weapons... and this work applied using quite rudimentary equipment either stitched onto leather or hammered onto steel hilts/quillons though not onto all the examples
which suggests to me that those VIP richly decorated swords may well have been presentation items and or high ranking business owners or Officers in the Omani Navy. Those swords of a lesser grade / munitions grade probably not so lavishly adorned nevertheless a degree of transfer identified in common design style. I tend to see some potential copying from the main style in Ottoman style plus style from other previous Omani types as well as unusual additions such as the Turtle motiff...and with a regional probably inexpensive blades ...and the black leather Scabbards complete with a sworl pattern. The apparent horses head hilt when finished in Ivory and gold imported from African trade operations into Zanzibars artesan workshops Joins the array of incredible designs and the broadened bottom third points at Malibari style seen on Moplah.

Last edited by Peter Hudson; 22nd February 2024 at 04:56 PM.
Peter Hudson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd February 2024, 02:23 PM   #7
fernando
(deceased)
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
Default Crowned Pi ...

The "Pi", as it is read, is a Greek symbol attributed to Milanese workshops, although some authors suggest that it might be a Styrian mark, as often found in blades of the Zeughaus at Graz in Styria. Not impossible to be seen in a number of centers as a (spurious) mark to indicate supposed quality, like Toledo or Andrea Ferrrara.


-
Attached Images
  
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd February 2024, 04:20 PM   #8
fernando
(deceased)
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
Default Some touch ups.

The sword shown in post #39 by Peter is superb. An interesting feature is that the blade is marked (SIC) "four times on both sides"; way too many for what we usually see out there. Also in the main description we can read that the inscription on the blade is a "Spanish inscription in characters similar to cipher", but in the additional information it reads "Klinge Inschrift (spanisch): reyna de las espadas" = Blade inscription (Spanish): reyna de las espadas (read Queen of swords). Therefore the cipher was already cracked by or for the Museum.
Back to the main description, the Museum appears to suggest a Jewish connection with this sword details based on numerous Spanish Jews having left Spain after the reconquest, moving to North Africa in the dominion of the Ottomans.
According to Enciclopedia Judaica, from the 165 000 Jews that abandoned Spain in 1492, only 32 000 are 'estimated' to have gone to the North African coast, 20 000 to Morocco and 10 000 to Algeria. It happens that Morocco, the larger slice, despite numerous attempts, was never under Ottoman domain. On the other hand and, in a strict'er (?) translation, the Museum decription says that, after the conquest of Granada, numerous Spanish Jews left the country and moved, some of them via North Africa, to the Ottoman territory.
To say that the Jewish community in Granada were intimate with the Muslims, which worsened their situation by the time of their expulsion. Some of them were even craftsmen selling their services to the occupiers, sword smiths included. Who doesn't know the famous Julian del Rey, the Jewish sword smith master allegedly converted and baptized by the Spanish Catholic Kings, who was said to have worked for Boabdil, the last Nasrid King of Granada
I suppose that their mode to decorate swords would be rather different than the mode favoured by the Ottomans.



.
Attached Images
 
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 08:33 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.