Identification of an indonesian dagger

Henk · 6th July 2006, 08:45 PM

Alan,

I hoped that the mark and the pictures of the tang could give any further information. I completely agree with you that speculating without evidence or logical arguments is useless. I invited you to comment because i highly appreciate your input and knowledge.
If you can manage to show some pics of a sangkuh to compare, it would be very nice.

DrD,

I agree with you that it is not a bayonet. It is just not right. I stay with the names Alan gave us for this weapon. Sangkuh or Buntut Mimi.

A. G. Maisey · 23rd July 2006, 08:40 AM

I undertook to post some pics of sangkuh in my possession. I have located one of these, and here are the pics.

Harsrinuksmo has an entry for a tombak of this triangular shape that he calls a "lingiran". In Javanese the word "lingiran" simply means something with sharp sides.

Any of these blades that I have seen have not been tombak, as all have lacked a metuk.

Harsrinuksmo notes that some people are of the opinion that this form was inspired by old-time bayonets.

Henk · 24th July 2006, 10:15 AM

Thanks for posting pics of your sangkuh, Alan.

The similarity on the second picture is the forging pattern of the blade above the pamor. That is what is vissible on mine example too.

The difference between your sangkuh and mine is the base. The peksi of your example is round and the base is worked out with rings where the peksi ended and the blade begins, like a methuk then the blade is getting smoothly broader. Mine peksi is square and between the peksi and the base of the blade there is no transition.
As you wrote: Harsrinuksmo notes that some people are of the opinion that this form was inspired by old-time bayonets.
I did find out that the dutch army used such triangular bajonets. But those bajonets certainly weren't forged and made of plain steel.

Boedhi Adhitya · 25th July 2006, 09:04 AM

Sangkuh, IMHO, could be an alteration and looks very identic to word 'Sangkur', a Javanese and Bahasa word, which in English means, as we expect, bayonet. I haven't heard here in Jogjakarta that this kind of blade would be classified as 'sangkuh', but I would except it, as I cannot give any other alternate names, while this kind of dagger quite familiar

I had also found 'true bayonet', with a ring for mounting the blade onto the muzzle, (or 'a round elbowformed tube to the socket' as Henk describe) and with a splitted pamor, exactly like Henk and Alan have. Could it be a Javanese made bayonet ? But for sure, it is not a tombak/spear. Tombak, as Alan said, need a 'methuk' to be mounted onto the spear shaft, in Javanese style spear. In fact, looking for a good methuk is the first step on assesing the tombak blades. the 'lingiran' tombak usually has an equilateral triangle shape, with a long pesi, and a methuk. The more common is the quadrangular, phillips screwdriver's shape which may leave a nasty ' + ' shape if you let it come into your stomach

This quadrangular blade usually called 'cipiran', shaped like cipir, a kind of tasty vegetables.

But if you ask me to vote, I may vote for modified bayonet. A flat side with a fuller and marking on one side only is a typical to this blade, as Henk pictures show.

A. G. Maisey · 25th July 2006, 09:53 AM

Yes, "sangkuh" is Javanese for "sangkur".

I only knew the Javanese, which is all I`ve ever heard these referred to in Solo, but after I read your post I checked a couple of dictionaries, and sure enough, sangkur is the Indonesian equivalent of sangkuh.

VVV · 22nd December 2006, 04:32 PM

Yesterday I found where I had stowed away my Sangkuh/Sangkur.
I got it several years ago in an auction lot together with several other Indonesian weapons.
At first I didn't feel like keeping it because of the dress. But then I noticed a collection number and thought it was strange that a bayonet blade was mounted as a Keris. And all the other weapons from that collection were interesting. So I decided that it was better to keep it until I found out what it was. Thanks to this thread I did and here is another example.

I also found this combination weapon at eBay and thought it was a Sumatran Kaso.
But now I assume that it's also a Sankuh.

Michael

PS More pictures at http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_album.php

Henk · 23rd December 2006, 11:35 AM

Michael,

The dress for that sangkuh is most unusual. That madurese kerisdress is from the period 1945-1950, made for the dutch soldiers to bring home. Just like the kerisdress with the wrangka as a lying lion with the ukiran in the shape of a woman or man
It means that this sangkuh was used for "tourist"-trading purposes with the dutch soldiers during that period.

23rd July 2006, 08:40 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	I undertook to post some pics of sangkuh in my possession. I have located one of these, and here are the pics. Harsrinuksmo has an entry for a tombak of this triangular shape that he calls a "lingiran". In Javanese the word "lingiran" simply means something with sharp sides. Any of these blades that I have seen have not been tombak, as all have lacked a metuk. Harsrinuksmo notes that some people are of the opinion that this form was inspired by old-time bayonets. Attached Images

24th July 2006, 10:15 AM	#3
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Thanks for posting pics of your sangkuh, Alan. The similarity on the second picture is the forging pattern of the blade above the pamor. That is what is vissible on mine example too. The difference between your sangkuh and mine is the base. The peksi of your example is round and the base is worked out with rings where the peksi ended and the blade begins, like a methuk then the blade is getting smoothly broader. Mine peksi is square and between the peksi and the base of the blade there is no transition. As you wrote: Harsrinuksmo notes that some people are of the opinion that this form was inspired by old-time bayonets. I did find out that the dutch army used such triangular bajonets. But those bajonets certainly weren't forged and made of plain steel. Attached Images

25th July 2006, 09:53 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Yes, "sangkuh" is Javanese for "sangkur". I only knew the Javanese, which is all I`ve ever heard these referred to in Solo, but after I read your post I checked a couple of dictionaries, and sure enough, sangkur is the Indonesian equivalent of sangkuh. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 25th July 2006 at 01:38 PM.

22nd December 2006, 04:32 PM	#6
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Yesterday I found where I had stowed away my Sangkuh/Sangkur. I got it several years ago in an auction lot together with several other Indonesian weapons. At first I didn't feel like keeping it because of the dress. But then I noticed a collection number and thought it was strange that a bayonet blade was mounted as a Keris. And all the other weapons from that collection were interesting. So I decided that it was better to keep it until I found out what it was. Thanks to this thread I did and here is another example. I also found this combination weapon at eBay and thought it was a Sumatran Kaso. But now I assume that it's also a Sankuh. Michael PS More pictures at http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_album.php Attached Images

6th July 2006, 08:45 PM	#1
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Alan, I hoped that the mark and the pictures of the tang could give any further information. I completely agree with you that speculating without evidence or logical arguments is useless. I invited you to comment because i highly appreciate your input and knowledge. If you can manage to show some pics of a sangkuh to compare, it would be very nice. DrD, I agree with you that it is not a bayonet. It is just not right. I stay with the names Alan gave us for this weapon. Sangkuh or Buntut Mimi.

25th July 2006, 09:04 AM	#4
Boedhi Adhitya Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 103	Sangkuh, IMHO, could be an alteration and looks very identic to word 'Sangkur', a Javanese and Bahasa word, which in English means, as we expect, bayonet. I haven't heard here in Jogjakarta that this kind of blade would be classified as 'sangkuh', but I would except it, as I cannot give any other alternate names, while this kind of dagger quite familiar I had also found 'true bayonet', with a ring for mounting the blade onto the muzzle, (or 'a round elbowformed tube to the socket' as Henk describe) and with a splitted pamor, exactly like Henk and Alan have. Could it be a Javanese made bayonet ? But for sure, it is not a tombak/spear. Tombak, as Alan said, need a 'methuk' to be mounted onto the spear shaft, in Javanese style spear. In fact, looking for a good methuk is the first step on assesing the tombak blades. the 'lingiran' tombak usually has an equilateral triangle shape, with a long pesi, and a methuk. The more common is the quadrangular, phillips screwdriver's shape which may leave a nasty ' + ' shape if you let it come into your stomach This quadrangular blade usually called 'cipiran', shaped like cipir, a kind of tasty vegetables. But if you ask me to vote, I may vote for modified bayonet. A flat side with a fuller and marking on one side only is a typical to this blade, as Henk pictures show.

23rd December 2006, 11:35 AM	#7
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Michael, The dress for that sangkuh is most unusual. That madurese kerisdress is from the period 1945-1950, made for the dutch soldiers to bring home. Just like the kerisdress with the wrangka as a lying lion with the ukiran in the shape of a woman or man It means that this sangkuh was used for "tourist"-trading purposes with the dutch soldiers during that period.