The Dresden MONK'S GUN - a MYTH Revisited, and Finally CORRECTLY DATED: ca. 1525-30!

rysays · 11th January 2024, 07:13 PM

I was actually browsing an online gallery of early wheellock tinder lighters a few days ago and noticed they all had flints inserted (with unfortunate damage to the wheels from doing so!). After also seeing the flint-fired reproduction & the abrasion you pointed out in the original bar, it gave me the idea that the pyrite may not be original. From what I understand, both flint & pyrite require a hardened steel plate to strike against, only the principle of spark generation is inverted as you described. I imagine a detailed microscope or xrf study of the bar & residues might identify what was originally used.

I don't think I'll ever be convinced of the design as a viable firearm, and agree with the opinion that it is more likely an experimental curiosity, noisemaker, or elaborate tinder lighter. From what I understand, the chronology of early ignition systems is obscured by trade secrecy & their near-immediate prohibition in the HRE & Italian states, which were also the centers of development & manufacturing. What I'm very curious about is the apparent existence of very early invoices from Braunschweig which mention friction locks in 1447? I don't have a copy of the relevant book "Das Kunsthandwerk der Büchsenmacher im Land Braunschweig", but would like to find the origin of such claims.

Raf · 10th February 2024, 07:03 PM

I managed to track down this clip from Thierbach which discuss the Monks gun in the context of other friction bar ignition systems. Could any kind person help with a translation as I can't get Google translate to do it?

rysays · 12th February 2024, 07:44 AM

Great find Raf, it seems to describe the monk's gun operating with pyrite as has been discussed, with linear & oblique cuts to the friction surface. Fig. 52 is a cannon lock from the 18th century with nearly identical construction, while 54 & 55 are spring driven friction bar systems from the 17th & 16th centuries respectively. This is what I gleamed using machine translation, and I can't find any opinions in the text regarding the efficacy of the device.

What I'm most curious about now is Fig.56 from that book, which shows an early 16th century lock where the friction surface is the segment of an arc. Functionally this would be the missing link between the linear bar & wheel, but not necessarily chronologically.

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10th February 2024, 07:03 PM	#2
Raf Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 252	I managed to track down this clip from Thierbach which discuss the Monks gun in the context of other friction bar ignition systems. Could any kind person help with a translation as I can't get Google translate to do it? Attached Images

11th January 2024, 07:13 PM	#1
rysays Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: NY, NY Posts: 9	I was actually browsing an online gallery of early wheellock tinder lighters a few days ago and noticed they all had flints inserted (with unfortunate damage to the wheels from doing so!). After also seeing the flint-fired reproduction & the abrasion you pointed out in the original bar, it gave me the idea that the pyrite may not be original. From what I understand, both flint & pyrite require a hardened steel plate to strike against, only the principle of spark generation is inverted as you described. I imagine a detailed microscope or xrf study of the bar & residues might identify what was originally used. I don't think I'll ever be convinced of the design as a viable firearm, and agree with the opinion that it is more likely an experimental curiosity, noisemaker, or elaborate tinder lighter. From what I understand, the chronology of early ignition systems is obscured by trade secrecy & their near-immediate prohibition in the HRE & Italian states, which were also the centers of development & manufacturing. What I'm very curious about is the apparent existence of very early invoices from Braunschweig which mention friction locks in 1447? I don't have a copy of the relevant book "Das Kunsthandwerk der Büchsenmacher im Land Braunschweig", but would like to find the origin of such claims.

12th February 2024, 07:44 AM	#3
rysays Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: NY, NY Posts: 9	Great find Raf, it seems to describe the monk's gun operating with pyrite as has been discussed, with linear & oblique cuts to the friction surface. Fig. 52 is a cannon lock from the 18th century with nearly identical construction, while 54 & 55 are spring driven friction bar systems from the 17th & 16th centuries respectively. This is what I gleamed using machine translation, and I can't find any opinions in the text regarding the efficacy of the device. What I'm most curious about now is Fig.56 from that book, which shows an early 16th century lock where the friction surface is the segment of an arc. Functionally this would be the missing link between the linear bar & wheel, but not necessarily chronologically.