Smallsword Info (named Sebastian Ernandes)

[Jim McDougall]

Fernando, thank you for always furnishing references from Palomares, which is such a valuable resource, and noting the Hernandez father and son. I have always wondered about the '3' which has been suggested (inconclusively) this might be a cursive 'Z' for Zaragoza, where some Toledo makers also worked.

This very attractive small sword is Georgian, hilted in the faceted 'cut steel' manner of Boulton, late 18th century London.
The use of spurious Spanish names and marks on sword blades was very much standard practice in Germany, especially Solingen, who of course was a primary source for English cutlers.

The use of SEBASTIAN (often without the surname) was not necessarily common, but relatively frequent on blades through the 17th century, so this blade is of course surely from much earlier period. Most likely it might have been a heirloom blade remounted into a more fashionable hilt of later time.

In analogy:
Attached is a Scottish basket hilt of Glasgow form mounted about end of 17th c. with a quite early Solingen blade (see Wirsberg mark c. 1620s?) and with the name SEBASTIAN in large letters. This of course alludes to the Hernandez as discussed, but the lettering of course unusual....the reversed S sometimes may have nuanced connection to 'magic' symbols. The familiar 'anchor' was another somewhat nuanced device from Spain spuriously used by Solingen artisans decorating blades.

The 'arches' mentioned are the pas d'ane rings, which were typically vestigial, that is somewhat flatter, in this late period.

[RogerFox]

Thank you Jim, you looks pretty sure abut what you are saying. Thats cool. One thing that really catch my eyes is the fact that the name calligraphy is made very well, for sure who made it took his time to give it a very good look. The way the A are done is quite unique.

Anyway with the "arch" i was referring to the big one, where you put the four fingers. That one is composed by separately 3 pieces and all of them are free to move... instead of just 1 molded one.


A video will show this quite well, but i dunno if i can upload one.

[fernando]

It is admitable that name misspells in sword blades, although often practiced by imitators, also occur with the genuine owners; omiting the H or writing S instead of Z in Hernandez could also happen.
One thing noticed with Hernandez master/s is that, their personal mark seems to always appear in their blades. Assuming Roger's blade is genuine, the only reason the mark in the ricasso doesn't show would be becasuse it was hidden by the ferrule used to set it up with the present hilt assembly. But of course, this is my fantasy working.
As for the symbol in their mark being a Z and not a 3, perhaps doubts should cease, as well known period authors, Lhermite for one, treat it as a Z. Either drawing it in their notes or even name it in the feminine, while the number 3 is masculine.





.

[toaster5sqn]

What you are calling the arch then is correctly known as the knuckle bow these days. Although I am aware of one period source (Rowarth) who refers to it as the 'ward iron'.

Robert

[fernando]

Originally Posted by toaster5sqn

What you are calling the arch then is correctly known as the knuckle bow these days. Although I am aware of one period source (Rowarth) who refers to it as the 'ward iron'...

So you have cracked the riddle, Robert. Good shot .

[Jim McDougall]

Fernando thank you again for the detailed notes on the '3' which perfectly explains it as the letter Z in this parlance.
Robert, excellent notes on the nomenclature, which has changed through the centuries and is often confusing semantically.

May I ask which reference is 'Rowarth' ? the name is not familiar.
The term 'ward iron' is intriguing!
Other terms are fascinating as well, such as pas d'ane .

I think some of the hilt terms Fernando has shared over the years are most colorful as used in Portuguese, such as the 'boca de caballo' for the hit of the 'bilbo' sword etc.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...I think some of the hilt terms Fernando has shared over the years are most colorful as used in Portuguese, such as the 'boca de caballo' for the hit of the 'bilbo' sword etc.

Actually Spanish (Castillian), meaning "horse's mouth" in the Spaniards language .

[Interested Party]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Fernando thank you again for the detailed notes on the '3' which perfectly explains it as the letter Z in this parlance.
Robert, excellent notes on the nomenclature, which has changed through the centuries and is often confusing

Is this related to the cedilla (ceda) and zeda Çç? I see the cedilla in older Spanish texts, probably into the late 17th maybe early 18th centuries?

Second question: Which of these two diagrams regarding pas d'ane is correct, or is it relative to which language you are discussing sword anatomy in?




PS I answered my own question in part before finishing the post. This tidbit is from Wikipedia:

"Zeta (UK: /ˈziːtə/,[1] US: /ˈzeɪtə/; uppercase Ζ, lowercase ζ; Ancient Greek: ζῆτα, Demotic Greek: ζήτα, classical [d͡zɛ̌:ta] or [zdɛ̌:ta] zē̂ta; Greek pronunciation: [ˈzita] zíta) is the sixth letter of the Greek alphabet. In the system of Greek numerals, it has a value of 7. It was derived from the Phoenician letter zayin Zayin. Letters that arose from zeta include the Roman Z and Cyrillic З."

So... the letter we are discussing to my understanding is basically a lowercase Greek "z" with a diacritical mark?

Fernando the "3" being masculine effects the cidilla/ceda/cedilha, as well in medieval texts?

Edit: Attached is a picture of a zeta. The lower case looks a lot like the various incarnations of what we are discussing.

[Radboud]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

The 'arches' mentioned are the pas d'ane rings, which were typically vestigial, that is somewhat flatter, in this late period.

This is a common mistake that has been reprinted in several books. “Pas d’ane” is a French term which literally translates to ‘donkey’s hoof’ that is used for a specific style of sword guard, because of its appearance from above. In English we would call it a clamshell guard, because from above it looks like an opened clamshell.

The half rings between the crossguard / knuckle bow and shell guard are called ‘Annulets’.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

May I ask which reference is 'Rowarth' ? the name is not familiar.
The term 'ward iron' is intriguing!
Other terms are fascinating as well, such as pas d'ane

Charles Roworth was the author of the late 18th Century treatise on sword fighting titled “The Art of Defence on Foot”. It is a popular training manual for HEMA practitioners of late 18th and early 19th Century fencing.

Copies of the treatise are available online for free.

[Radboud]

for reference (source):

[Jim McDougall]

That is EXCELLENT elucidation Radboud!
Its great to have the proper updates on terms, I saw the donkey hoof thing in Egerton Castle (1885).

[fernando]

A great input by Radboud. In fact, the widespread notion of what the pas d'ane would be, is wrong; still we can see it being used by countless authors. In the same source provided (now uploaded) we have a drawing of how this part is usually wrongly named.
But while this the pas d'ane gallicism was adopted all over, other parts of the guard were visibly not imported, such as the term "revers" (translating to "reverse") for knuckle bow, or knuckle guard.
Remember the image shown above was taken from the Fort Ticonderoga, one of French origin. Could this be the reason for the rare appearance of the "revers" term ?.



.

[toaster5sqn]

Thanks to Radbound for answering Jim's question to me before I got to it.

Robert