Tulwar hilt and disc pommel.....the reason for their design

katana · 3rd July 2006, 03:21 PM

In my experience of Martial Arts, whether with weapons or not, stylised routines were developed which incorperated 'moves' and techniques. These are generally know as 'forms'.
Many of the 'forms' seem little more than a sequence of movement: however ....this is usually far from the truth.
What I see is fast coordination between body movement and sword movement, the practice of deadly slashing cuts....this is the function of the 'dance', obviously you would not run into the battle field and then re-enact it.....this is practice ...in fluid movement.
The movements may seem dance-like but it develops balance, coordination and technique.............. this concept is well understood by many Eastern cultures and practioners of their Martial Arts in the West.

Rick · 3rd July 2006, 03:26 PM

I caught a glimpses of a very functional thrust, parries and draw cuts from those vids .
The rest , possibly some elements of positioning for the strike ; most everything else seemed like frosting on the cake .

katana · 3rd July 2006, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

I caught a glimpses of a very functional thrust, parries and draw cuts from those vids .
The rest , possibly some elements of positioning for the strike ; most everything else seemed like frosting on the cake .

......or perhaps evasive manoeuvres...

Rick · 3rd July 2006, 04:52 PM

Yes possibly those too ; but the whirling blade business .

Jens Nordlunde · 3rd July 2006, 05:28 PM

My personal opinion is, that when clips like the these are shown, one should write that this is a kind of dance and not how they fought at the time. On the forum there are new as well as old collectors, and the new collectors may not be able to look what is behind these clips – they make take them for real.

Tim Simmons · 3rd July 2006, 09:28 PM

This is most impressive, a beautiful show of sword play. Some of the clips bring to mind the historic axe swing in the lines of the Saxons at Senlac Hill.

The foot work is a little static for a true dance, certainly for actual sport fencing which can at times be an approximation to a duel or fighting swordsmanship. None the less very skillful and the fact that these clips show thier hands are very familiar with the sword says enough.

Jim McDougall · 3rd July 2006, 10:08 PM

While I profess no experience whatsoever in martial arts, I have great admiration and respect for those who seriously practice these disciplines. It would seem to me, as an observer, that these forms and manuevers although gracefully practiced in repetition and apparant stylized choreography, are intended to condition the individual into harmony with the weapon. Clearly, as we have previously discussed, in the heat of battle such rehearsed movements would have no place, and the warrior would not be thinking of following such course. It would seem that unconsciously, however, many of the standard movements may be applied as required and the warrior would be conditioned to carry them through.

Conversely, I cannot help recalling an instance in the narrative of a British cavalryman after the Battle of Balaklava, better known of course for the immortal Charge of the Light Brigade. The trooper was completely incensed because in a combat encounter with a Russian cavalry trooper, the proper sword combat procedures were not followed by the Russian! As I recall he complained that he attacked with a cut 3 or 4 (cannot be certain of the numeric) but the Russian responded with an unexpected cut, out of sequence and "the bloody fool knocked me off my horse!!". It almost sounded as if there had been a referee there he would have announced a foul!!

It seems there are many narratives of battles where the complete uselessness of certain rigid military drills totally out of place in unforeseen circumstances became more liability than asset.

I agree that while certain movies and video clips offer great entertainment, they are less than informative when it comes to actual weapon history. One of my recollections is of a pirate movie (of course c.1680) where one of the pirates is wielding a brass hilted cutlass (uh, a M1860 naval cutlass from the Civil War!

.

Best regards,
Jim

3rd July 2006, 09:28 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	This is most impressive, a beautiful show of sword play. Some of the clips bring to mind the historic axe swing in the lines of the Saxons at Senlac Hill. The foot work is a little static for a true dance, certainly for actual sport fencing which can at times be an approximation to a duel or fighting swordsmanship. None the less very skillful and the fact that these clips show thier hands are very familiar with the sword says enough. Last edited by Tim Simmons; 3rd July 2006 at 09:55 PM.

3rd July 2006, 03:21 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	In my experience of Martial Arts, whether with weapons or not, stylised routines were developed which incorperated 'moves' and techniques. These are generally know as 'forms'. Many of the 'forms' seem little more than a sequence of movement: however ....this is usually far from the truth. What I see is fast coordination between body movement and sword movement, the practice of deadly slashing cuts....this is the function of the 'dance', obviously you would not run into the battle field and then re-enact it.....this is practice ...in fluid movement. The movements may seem dance-like but it develops balance, coordination and technique.............. this concept is well understood by many Eastern cultures and practioners of their Martial Arts in the West.

3rd July 2006, 03:26 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	I caught a glimpses of a very functional thrust, parries and draw cuts from those vids . The rest , possibly some elements of positioning for the strike ; most everything else seemed like frosting on the cake .

3rd July 2006, 04:52 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Yes possibly those too ; but the whirling blade business .

3rd July 2006, 05:28 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	My personal opinion is, that when clips like the these are shown, one should write that this is a kind of dance and not how they fought at the time. On the forum there are new as well as old collectors, and the new collectors may not be able to look what is behind these clips – they make take them for real.

3rd July 2006, 10:08 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,284	While I profess no experience whatsoever in martial arts, I have great admiration and respect for those who seriously practice these disciplines. It would seem to me, as an observer, that these forms and manuevers although gracefully practiced in repetition and apparant stylized choreography, are intended to condition the individual into harmony with the weapon. Clearly, as we have previously discussed, in the heat of battle such rehearsed movements would have no place, and the warrior would not be thinking of following such course. It would seem that unconsciously, however, many of the standard movements may be applied as required and the warrior would be conditioned to carry them through. Conversely, I cannot help recalling an instance in the narrative of a British cavalryman after the Battle of Balaklava, better known of course for the immortal Charge of the Light Brigade. The trooper was completely incensed because in a combat encounter with a Russian cavalry trooper, the proper sword combat procedures were not followed by the Russian! As I recall he complained that he attacked with a cut 3 or 4 (cannot be certain of the numeric) but the Russian responded with an unexpected cut, out of sequence and "the bloody fool knocked me off my horse!!". It almost sounded as if there had been a referee there he would have announced a foul!! It seems there are many narratives of battles where the complete uselessness of certain rigid military drills totally out of place in unforeseen circumstances became more liability than asset. I agree that while certain movies and video clips offer great entertainment, they are less than informative when it comes to actual weapon history. One of my recollections is of a pirate movie (of course c.1680) where one of the pirates is wielding a brass hilted cutlass (uh, a M1860 naval cutlass from the Civil War! . Best regards, Jim