1815 Dutch Rifled Musket

twines · 14th November 2023, 02:45 PM

Thanks for the responses. I am begining to get the history of the gun and it's pretty neet. I am copying a response from Christian Wellard from the Royal Armouries. So far I still believe the gun started life as a 1815 Dutch musket. It was either rifled or rebarreled by Belgians . (hence the GB) Christian suggest I reach out to National Military Museum of the Netherlands. I will do that later today and let you all know what I find out. To the gentleman who suggest the CS is Confederate States, I could only wish. I have recieved mixed opinions on these guns being imported by both North and South in large quanity. I am leaning toward they were not or at least not in significant quanity. Anyway here is the response from Christian Wellard

Dear Tom,

Thanks for bearing with us. I’ve had a look at our best resource for these Dutch arms (B J Martens & G de Vries, Nederlandse Vuurwapens 1813-1866), though it is in Dutch so anything I’m bringing from that should be taken with a bit of salt just in case. It appears this conversion process was begun around 1841, and it seems to have been a bit of a struggle for the Dutch government to find a suitable company to actually carry out the process. Malherbe of Liege was a potential candidate, but Martens and de Vries note that there was opposition to using them within the Dutch War Department. It didn’t help their situation that the Liege gun industry had become such a major supplier, and of course as of 1830 Belgium was no longer part of the Netherlands. The book notes that although records of how the company was chosen were lost, but it ended up being a Maastricht businessman named Petrus Regout who managed to secure the Dutch government’s approval. The parts for conversion were made in Liege and then brought to Maastricht, where the conversions were made, starting in January 1842.

The markings on your gun are more difficult to work out, as some of them don’t appear in the book, so I’m afraid I can’t be of the greatest amount of help here. That said, the apparent broad arrow mark on the barrel isn’t at all in the British military style. Rather, alongside the other tally marks nearby it, this looks like it may have been an assembly mark. Makers back in those days would often mark up individual parts with incised lines in various patterns, in order to keep track of which parts go together whilst working on multiple guns at the same time.

I think your best bet at this stage for the markings would be to get in touch with the Nationaal Militair Museum in the Netherlands. They’ll be the best-placed team to help work out the rest of the details, and their website’s here: https://www.nmm.nl/en/

I hope that helps, and wish you luck finding out more about your gun.

Kind regards,

Christian Wellard

Curatorial Assistant

Norman McCormick · 14th November 2023, 04:56 PM

Hi Tom,
This discussion will be of interest. http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread...ght=dutch+1815
I found the Dutch Army Museum very helpful and I think it would be good idea to get in touch with them re your musket. These muskets were based on the French 1777 Charleville and if you want a bayonet the French one will fit. I tried to track down a Dutch made bayonet but without success but the French ones are relatively easy to source.
Regards,
Norman.

corrado26 · 15th November 2023, 10:25 AM

In order to identify this gun some additional information.

Norman McCormick · 15th November 2023, 02:23 PM

Hi,
I reckon if you contact both Belgian and Dutch Army Museums you will get a definite answer as to the lineage of your gun. I have had occasion to contact both Museums and found them both very helpful. Regardless of the origin of your musket it would appear it is still based on the French 1777 Charleville and therefore the bayonet information would still be appropriate.
Regards,
Norman.

twines · 27th November 2023, 01:38 PM

Hi Thomas,

That is indeed the Belgian Government mark. This is nothing out of the ordinary, as the Belgian Government used older Dutch Muskets that were left behind after the Belgian Revolution against the Dutch. Which makes it rather ‘weird’ is indeed the fact that it was transformed to percussion system after it received the Belgian acceptance mark (starting from 1830), but in the matter exactly like the Dutch Government started doing in the 1840’s.

If it is a M1815 type 2, the construction can’t be after 1820 because at this date their production was cancelled. 1838 is however too early for transformation to percussion the way it is present.

The stripe marks on the barrel, including the arrow, are simply inspector’s marks, to keep internal order in which parts were inspected and in what stage. The ‘British broad arrow’ is thus not really a British Broad arrow.

The letters found above the chamber on the barrel or on the different metal parts are the initials of the Inspectors to proof that the different parts were found acceptable for use.

The letters on the wood are typical Belgian marking for acceptance of wooden stocks.

The musket is most likely a mix of different pieces brought together in a later stage, by an arms dealer or restorer

Kind regards,

Arthur Van Rossem

Diensthoofd a.i. Vuurwapens / Chef de Service a.i. Armes à feu

corrado26 · 27th November 2023, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twines

That is indeed the Belgian Government mark. This is nothing out of the ordinary, as the Belgian Government used older Dutch Muskets that were left behind after the Belgian Revolution against the Dutch.u

Very nice to get confirmed what I'd written im my first post

14th November 2023, 04:56 PM	#2
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,613	Hi Tom, This discussion will be of interest. http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread...ght=dutch+1815 I found the Dutch Army Museum very helpful and I think it would be good idea to get in touch with them re your musket. These muskets were based on the French 1777 Charleville and if you want a bayonet the French one will fit. I tried to track down a Dutch made bayonet but without success but the French ones are relatively easy to source. Regards, Norman. Last edited by Norman McCormick; 14th November 2023 at 05:10 PM.

15th November 2023, 10:25 AM	#3
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,226	In order to identify this gun some additional information. Attached Images

27th November 2023, 01:38 PM	#5
twines Member Join Date: Oct 2023 Posts: 3	Here information The WHI in Brussels Hi Thomas, That is indeed the Belgian Government mark. This is nothing out of the ordinary, as the Belgian Government used older Dutch Muskets that were left behind after the Belgian Revolution against the Dutch. Which makes it rather ‘weird’ is indeed the fact that it was transformed to percussion system after it received the Belgian acceptance mark (starting from 1830), but in the matter exactly like the Dutch Government started doing in the 1840’s. If it is a M1815 type 2, the construction can’t be after 1820 because at this date their production was cancelled. 1838 is however too early for transformation to percussion the way it is present. The stripe marks on the barrel, including the arrow, are simply inspector’s marks, to keep internal order in which parts were inspected and in what stage. The ‘British broad arrow’ is thus not really a British Broad arrow. The letters found above the chamber on the barrel or on the different metal parts are the initials of the Inspectors to proof that the different parts were found acceptable for use. The letters on the wood are typical Belgian marking for acceptance of wooden stocks. The musket is most likely a mix of different pieces brought together in a later stage, by an arms dealer or restorer Kind regards, Arthur Van Rossem Diensthoofd a.i. Vuurwapens / Chef de Service a.i. Armes à feu

14th November 2023, 02:45 PM	#1
twines Member Join Date: Oct 2023 Posts: 3	Thanks for the responses. I am begining to get the history of the gun and it's pretty neet. I am copying a response from Christian Wellard from the Royal Armouries. So far I still believe the gun started life as a 1815 Dutch musket. It was either rifled or rebarreled by Belgians . (hence the GB) Christian suggest I reach out to National Military Museum of the Netherlands. I will do that later today and let you all know what I find out. To the gentleman who suggest the CS is Confederate States, I could only wish. I have recieved mixed opinions on these guns being imported by both North and South in large quanity. I am leaning toward they were not or at least not in significant quanity. Anyway here is the response from Christian Wellard Dear Tom, Thanks for bearing with us. I’ve had a look at our best resource for these Dutch arms (B J Martens & G de Vries, Nederlandse Vuurwapens 1813-1866), though it is in Dutch so anything I’m bringing from that should be taken with a bit of salt just in case. It appears this conversion process was begun around 1841, and it seems to have been a bit of a struggle for the Dutch government to find a suitable company to actually carry out the process. Malherbe of Liege was a potential candidate, but Martens and de Vries note that there was opposition to using them within the Dutch War Department. It didn’t help their situation that the Liege gun industry had become such a major supplier, and of course as of 1830 Belgium was no longer part of the Netherlands. The book notes that although records of how the company was chosen were lost, but it ended up being a Maastricht businessman named Petrus Regout who managed to secure the Dutch government’s approval. The parts for conversion were made in Liege and then brought to Maastricht, where the conversions were made, starting in January 1842. The markings on your gun are more difficult to work out, as some of them don’t appear in the book, so I’m afraid I can’t be of the greatest amount of help here. That said, the apparent broad arrow mark on the barrel isn’t at all in the British military style. Rather, alongside the other tally marks nearby it, this looks like it may have been an assembly mark. Makers back in those days would often mark up individual parts with incised lines in various patterns, in order to keep track of which parts go together whilst working on multiple guns at the same time. I think your best bet at this stage for the markings would be to get in touch with the Nationaal Militair Museum in the Netherlands. They’ll be the best-placed team to help work out the rest of the details, and their website’s here: https://www.nmm.nl/en/ I hope that helps, and wish you luck finding out more about your gun. Kind regards, Christian Wellard Curatorial Assistant

15th November 2023, 02:23 PM	#4
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,613	Hi, I reckon if you contact both Belgian and Dutch Army Museums you will get a definite answer as to the lineage of your gun. I have had occasion to contact both Museums and found them both very helpful. Regardless of the origin of your musket it would appear it is still based on the French 1777 Charleville and therefore the bayonet information would still be appropriate. Regards, Norman.