Identification of an indonesian dagger

kronckew · 2nd July 2006, 12:12 PM

saw this one while looking thru http://old.blades.free.fr/other_malay/batakdagger.htm , under 'other edged weapons'

sumatra, batak, cruciform or triangular blade?

Ki Jayamalelo · 3rd July 2006, 07:28 PM

Hello Henk,

you talk about "forging pattern" of your "dagger" but you must think this is an old bayonet of the 18 cent. This has been the first steps producing modern steel like cast steel. I think it was first Benjamin Huntsman who made the first crucible steel in 1742 in England. This dagger could be even older and could be in use by the British Troops in the time (1815) of Governor Raffles. For learning on manufacture of iron and steel the net has many information.

KJ

Rick · 3rd July 2006, 07:58 PM

I must ask ; why would the English wish to use crucible steel in a bayonet of all things when they had fine non crucible steel that was most likely easier to work , cheaper and tougher ?

I have in my hands right now a late 17th/early 18th century backsword blade English which is not crucible steel . If you melt an ingot of crucible steel for casting will it still retain any pattern or will it become homogenus ?

Tim Simmons · 3rd July 2006, 08:10 PM

I do not think this has anything to do with European/British steel or bayonet and blade forms. I think it has its origins in the spears from Indo/Persia and other Asian influences on Indonesia.

nechesh · 3rd July 2006, 09:24 PM

Hey Henk, is the hilt easily removable like on a keris. It might be educational to have a look at the tang.

Battara · 4th July 2006, 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

I do not think this has anything to do with European/British steel or bayonet and blade forms. I think it has its origins in the spears from Indo/Persia and other Asian influences on Indonesia.

I'm inclined to agree with you Tim. Many India spearheads are like this. Trade perhaps? Not unheard of in this region.

Henk · 4th July 2006, 07:09 PM

Gentlemen, I'm very happy with your input.

Nechesh, I could remove the hilt and made some pictures of the tang. During taking the pictures I noticed a very small stamp on the blade, hardly visible, but the pictures don't lie. It is very hard to see what the mark is even under a magnifying glass. I asked my daughter to look for me and she saw something like a N and a 4 or a triangle. On the picture I have a better image and I see something as PM or PN but it is very small and hardly to see with naked eyes.
Ki Jayamalelo showed a link of bayonets with a triangular one. If you look at such a bayonet it is attached with a round elbowformed tube to the socket.
The tang of my blade is square and doesn't show signs of reattachement to the blade.

As far as I know those reattachements or welding spurs are easily to discover. I've seen often reattached peksi's to keris. The place were the peksi is reattached is always thicker and visible.

I would like to hear your comments on these facts.
Alan, I hope you will react as well.

Tim Simmons · 4th July 2006, 07:19 PM

Which way up is the mark read????

Rick · 4th July 2006, 07:29 PM

Well , I'm willing to eat my words .

But what ?
Plug bayonet ?

3rd July 2006, 07:58 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	All Well and Fine ... But I must ask ; why would the English wish to use crucible steel in a bayonet of all things when they had fine non crucible steel that was most likely easier to work , cheaper and tougher ? I have in my hands right now a late 17th/early 18th century backsword blade English which is not crucible steel . If you melt an ingot of crucible steel for casting will it still retain any pattern or will it become homogenus ? Last edited by Rick; 3rd July 2006 at 08:13 PM.

4th July 2006, 07:09 PM	#7
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Gentlemen, I'm very happy with your input. Nechesh, I could remove the hilt and made some pictures of the tang. During taking the pictures I noticed a very small stamp on the blade, hardly visible, but the pictures don't lie. It is very hard to see what the mark is even under a magnifying glass. I asked my daughter to look for me and she saw something like a N and a 4 or a triangle. On the picture I have a better image and I see something as PM or PN but it is very small and hardly to see with naked eyes. Ki Jayamalelo showed a link of bayonets with a triangular one. If you look at such a bayonet it is attached with a round elbowformed tube to the socket. The tang of my blade is square and doesn't show signs of reattachement to the blade. As far as I know those reattachements or welding spurs are easily to discover. I've seen often reattached peksi's to keris. The place were the peksi is reattached is always thicker and visible. I would like to hear your comments on these facts. Alan, I hope you will react as well. Attached Images

4th July 2006, 07:29 PM	#9
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	European Well , I'm willing to eat my words . But what ? Plug bayonet ?

2nd July 2006, 12:12 PM	#1
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	saw this one while looking thru http://old.blades.free.fr/other_malay/batakdagger.htm , under 'other edged weapons' sumatra, batak, cruciform or triangular blade?

3rd July 2006, 07:28 PM	#2
Ki Jayamalelo Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Germany Posts: 18	Hello Henk, you talk about "forging pattern" of your "dagger" but you must think this is an old bayonet of the 18 cent. This has been the first steps producing modern steel like cast steel. I think it was first Benjamin Huntsman who made the first crucible steel in 1742 in England. This dagger could be even older and could be in use by the British Troops in the time (1815) of Governor Raffles. For learning on manufacture of iron and steel the net has many information. KJ

3rd July 2006, 08:10 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	I do not think this has anything to do with European/British steel or bayonet and blade forms. I think it has its origins in the spears from Indo/Persia and other Asian influences on Indonesia.

3rd July 2006, 09:24 PM	#5
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Hey Henk, is the hilt easily removable like on a keris. It might be educational to have a look at the tang.

4th July 2006, 07:19 PM	#8
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	Which way up is the mark read????