Identification of an indonesian dagger

Henk · 22nd June 2006, 07:34 PM

Bought recently this dagger. The triangular blade is forged, probably a pamor blade. At the base a very small mark that looks like a N and an A. The wooden scabbard is covered with silver. Ivory hilt and copper hilt knob.
Any comments are very welcome.

Tim Simmons · 22nd June 2006, 07:44 PM

The decorative pommel cap reminds me of Indian jewelery. I will post an example.

Tim Simmons · 22nd June 2006, 08:05 PM

I know there is a great deal of Indian influence in Indonesia so the metalwork on this bangle might also be typical in Indonesia. An area of artifacts I have not spent time observing. Even so the similarity is quite striking.

VVV · 23rd June 2006, 03:26 AM

It looks like a rehilted bayonet blade?
I have seen a rehilted bayonet in Madurese dress before, like a Keris.

Michael

A. G. Maisey · 23rd June 2006, 05:54 AM

In Central Jawa this blade form is known as a "sangkuh"; in East Jawa it is known as "buntut mimi".

The silver work in the pommel cap is similar to some work currently being done in Kota Gede.

Battara · 23rd June 2006, 05:29 PM

Some of this type of silver work is also still being done in the southern Philippines. I agree with the bayonet observation.

Henk · 23rd June 2006, 08:42 PM

Tim,

Thanks for your pictures of the indian jewelry. It has similarities indeed. I think you can find this in the whole area. India, Philipines and Indonesia.

Michael and Battara,

It was my first thought too when I saw the blade. A rehilted bayonet. But bayonets are as far as I know of plain steel and smooth. This blade is hand forged.

AG Maisey,

Thanks for naming this dagger. I looked in my books and found in Stone on page 538: SANGU A Central Indian spear made entirely of steel. It has a long triangular or quadrangular head.

You speak of "sangkuh" in Central Java and "buntut mimi" in East Java. Did those spearheads came from India to Java or where these spearheads made by empu's after their Indian brother's and mounted as a tombak?

Looks like Tim was right then with his Indian shot.

A. G. Maisey · 24th June 2006, 01:48 AM

In Jawa I have never seen them mounted as spearheads. They are usually mounted in dress that is reminiscent of a command baton. I have seen one in very old dress that was mounted as a keris.I do not believe they have ever been mounted as a tombak in Jawa.

I do not think there is any Indian connection with the Javanese pieces. They have always reminded me of an old European bayonet pattern, and this may have been their origin, but I have not seen or owned any that were of European manufacture. All I have handled have been of Indonesian manufacture.

Would it be possible for you to provide clear close-ups of the metal scabbard cover. Do you know if this is silver, silver plate, or an alloy, such as mamas?

nechesh · 24th June 2006, 05:38 AM

Hey Alan, do you have any idea as to the purpose of these blades. Was it meant as a functional weapon or was it more ceremonial ritualistic. I suppose that on the practical side that triangular blade would leave a pretty nasty hole.

But is also reminds me of a phurpa which is strictly a ritual weapon.

Henk · 24th June 2006, 08:41 AM

Alan,

Thanks for your clear explanation. The blade has that triangular European bayonet pattern. As I wrote before it was my first thought. It is very likely that this is the origin indeed.

I made some pictures of the scabbard. I hope it will do.
I don't think it is pure silver used for the scabbard. It has a copper smell, so i supose it is silver plated or an alloy.

The question of Nechesh is a nice one too. Being dressed as a command baton it would be purely ceremonial, but if i look at the blade it isn't so ceremonial at all and will leave a nasty problem for the guy who's standing at the wrong side of it.

A. G. Maisey · 24th June 2006, 10:17 AM

Thank you Henk.
I was hoping I would recognise embossing of one of the types I am familiar with, but I do not.
However, the construction of the pendok does look very Balinese; I am looking at the way the back panel of the pendok is folded up over the sides of the front panel.
Silver is very easy to test. You buy a bottle of silver test from a jeweller`s supplier. It is very cheap and lasts for years.

David, this is just one blade style amongst many. It is clearly a weapon, and was undoubtedly used as such.
Purpose?
Termination of human life.

The baton style dress is more recent, just as tombak have been dressed as daggers for the last 100 years or so. Even the one I saw dressed as a keris, although the dress was old, was probably only 100 or so years old. It would not have gone back to, say, 1750-1850.

Realistically, looking at Henk`s example it is probably a second half of the 20th century scabbard, the ivory somewhat older, and the blade much older. Who knows how many times the dress may have been changed or different styles used?

Henk · 24th June 2006, 03:23 PM

Alan,

Thanks for your lesson. Although we have a lot of malay weaponry here in Holland, this one was new for me and i have never seen one before.

Thanks for your help, Alan.

Henk

doecon · 1st July 2006, 09:34 PM

Henk,

I think you have found yourself a modified european small sword in indonesian dress. The blade style is clearly not indonesian, but probably north european made (imported by the dutch?). It is probably cut (halfway) and resharpened.

The dress is indeed a recent creation, as you can see from the wood (at the beginning of the scabbard) and the metalworks (silver?)

There are plenty old european blades being modified in Indonesia, even in more recent times (1900's), your blade looks indeed a bit older. Try cleaning the blade propperly, maybe you still find more makers marks (Solingen?). My guess is its a mid to late 18th small sword.

Rick · 1st July 2006, 10:03 PM

A Euro pamor blade ?

New to me .

nechesh · 1st July 2006, 10:48 PM

There is little question that the sheath is recent work, though the hilt obviously has some age to it, but it clearly looks like Indonesian work to me. I have never seen a European blade with this type of pamor work.....and why would Mr. Maisey, a man with half a century (sorry Alan, not trying to make you feel old

) of experience and exposure to Indonesian weaponry so clearly identify this weapon by name(s) if he wasn't familar with it? It is obviously something he is familiar with.

Ki Jayamalelo · 2nd July 2006, 02:46 AM

Triangular bayonets were used before 18 cent. Here are a lot of information.http://www.rememuseum.org.uk/arms/blade/armbay.htm#359

Bill M · 2nd July 2006, 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nechesh

There is little question that the sheath is recent work, though the hilt obviously has some age to it, but it clearly looks like Indonesian work to me. I have never seen a European blade with this type of pamor work.....and why would Mr. Maisey, a man with half a century (sorry Alan, not trying to make you feel old

) of experience and exposure to Indonesian weaponry so clearly identify this weapon by name(s) if he wasn't familar with it? It is obviously something he is familiar with.

I agree with David and Alan. I have a tombak from Alan that is very smiliar in blade construction though the recent dress is more like a command baton. Personally, I trust Alan's description as being correct.

Henk · 2nd July 2006, 09:50 AM

Gentlemen,

I agree also with the members who agree with Alan. Although the remark has been made that it could be a rehilted european bayonet and that it was my first thought to, but the forging pattern doesn't match with a european manufactured bayonet. I've seen them in musea all over Europe but the steel is not forged in the way of mine example. Looking to the forging patterns I'm rather convinced it is a pamor blade.

kronckew · 2nd July 2006, 12:12 PM

saw this one while looking thru http://old.blades.free.fr/other_malay/batakdagger.htm , under 'other edged weapons'

sumatra, batak, cruciform or triangular blade?

Ki Jayamalelo · 3rd July 2006, 07:28 PM

Hello Henk,

you talk about "forging pattern" of your "dagger" but you must think this is an old bayonet of the 18 cent. This has been the first steps producing modern steel like cast steel. I think it was first Benjamin Huntsman who made the first crucible steel in 1742 in England. This dagger could be even older and could be in use by the British Troops in the time (1815) of Governor Raffles. For learning on manufacture of iron and steel the net has many information.

KJ

Rick · 3rd July 2006, 07:58 PM

I must ask ; why would the English wish to use crucible steel in a bayonet of all things when they had fine non crucible steel that was most likely easier to work , cheaper and tougher ?

I have in my hands right now a late 17th/early 18th century backsword blade English which is not crucible steel . If you melt an ingot of crucible steel for casting will it still retain any pattern or will it become homogenus ?

Tim Simmons · 3rd July 2006, 08:10 PM

I do not think this has anything to do with European/British steel or bayonet and blade forms. I think it has its origins in the spears from Indo/Persia and other Asian influences on Indonesia.

nechesh · 3rd July 2006, 09:24 PM

Hey Henk, is the hilt easily removable like on a keris. It might be educational to have a look at the tang.

Battara · 4th July 2006, 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

I do not think this has anything to do with European/British steel or bayonet and blade forms. I think it has its origins in the spears from Indo/Persia and other Asian influences on Indonesia.

I'm inclined to agree with you Tim. Many India spearheads are like this. Trade perhaps? Not unheard of in this region.

Henk · 4th July 2006, 07:09 PM

Gentlemen, I'm very happy with your input.

Nechesh, I could remove the hilt and made some pictures of the tang. During taking the pictures I noticed a very small stamp on the blade, hardly visible, but the pictures don't lie. It is very hard to see what the mark is even under a magnifying glass. I asked my daughter to look for me and she saw something like a N and a 4 or a triangle. On the picture I have a better image and I see something as PM or PN but it is very small and hardly to see with naked eyes.
Ki Jayamalelo showed a link of bayonets with a triangular one. If you look at such a bayonet it is attached with a round elbowformed tube to the socket.
The tang of my blade is square and doesn't show signs of reattachement to the blade.

As far as I know those reattachements or welding spurs are easily to discover. I've seen often reattached peksi's to keris. The place were the peksi is reattached is always thicker and visible.

I would like to hear your comments on these facts.
Alan, I hope you will react as well.

Tim Simmons · 4th July 2006, 07:19 PM

Which way up is the mark read????

Rick · 4th July 2006, 07:29 PM

Well , I'm willing to eat my words .

But what ?
Plug bayonet ?

Henk · 4th July 2006, 07:37 PM

Tim,

Now that I'm looking a bit better to the pictures you can read the mark with the point towards you as PM and with the angle towards you as NJ or something. I really cann't make anyting of it and better pictures than these are not possible.

Tim Simmons · 4th July 2006, 07:45 PM

I still do not see a European bayonet. The mark, what we can see is not recognisably European. The brown bess type bayonets have thinner cutting edges.? They are not made of this type of steel. There seems to be no grinding on the blade? I suppose there is a wild chance that it could be some really early rich persons bayonet. Did rich people stand in line with bayonets?

Henk · 5th July 2006, 06:31 PM

Not that I know, Tim. As far as I know farmers did join the battles of their lords in the middle ages. But their weapons where more their tools they used to work with on the fields. In the ages after the middle ages the battles where fought by armies with trained soldiers. But i don't know enough about this subject to give a good answer on that.

22nd June 2006, 07:34 PM	#1
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Identification of an indonesian dagger Bought recently this dagger. The triangular blade is forged, probably a pamor blade. At the base a very small mark that looks like a N and an A. The wooden scabbard is covered with silver. Ivory hilt and copper hilt knob. Any comments are very welcome. Attached Images

22nd June 2006, 07:44 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	The decorative pommel cap reminds me of Indian jewelery. I will post an example. Last edited by Tim Simmons; 22nd June 2006 at 08:06 PM.

24th June 2006, 08:41 AM	#10
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Alan, Thanks for your clear explanation. The blade has that triangular European bayonet pattern. As I wrote before it was my first thought. It is very likely that this is the origin indeed. I made some pictures of the scabbard. I hope it will do. I don't think it is pure silver used for the scabbard. It has a copper smell, so i supose it is silver plated or an alloy. The question of Nechesh is a nice one too. Being dressed as a command baton it would be purely ceremonial, but if i look at the blade it isn't so ceremonial at all and will leave a nasty problem for the guy who's standing at the wrong side of it. Attached Images

1st July 2006, 10:03 PM	#14
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	A Euro pamor blade ? New to me . Attached Images

3rd July 2006, 07:58 PM	#21
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	All Well and Fine ... But I must ask ; why would the English wish to use crucible steel in a bayonet of all things when they had fine non crucible steel that was most likely easier to work , cheaper and tougher ? I have in my hands right now a late 17th/early 18th century backsword blade English which is not crucible steel . If you melt an ingot of crucible steel for casting will it still retain any pattern or will it become homogenus ? Last edited by Rick; 3rd July 2006 at 08:13 PM.

22nd June 2006, 08:05 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	I know there is a great deal of Indian influence in Indonesia so the metalwork on this bangle might also be typical in Indonesia. An area of artifacts I have not spent time observing. Even so the similarity is quite striking. Attached Images

23rd June 2006, 03:26 AM	#4
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	It looks like a rehilted bayonet blade? I have seen a rehilted bayonet in Madurese dress before, like a Keris. Michael

23rd June 2006, 05:54 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	In Central Jawa this blade form is known as a "sangkuh"; in East Jawa it is known as "buntut mimi". The silver work in the pommel cap is similar to some work currently being done in Kota Gede.

23rd June 2006, 05:29 PM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	Some of this type of silver work is also still being done in the southern Philippines. I agree with the bayonet observation.

23rd June 2006, 08:42 PM	#7
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Tim, Thanks for your pictures of the indian jewelry. It has similarities indeed. I think you can find this in the whole area. India, Philipines and Indonesia. Michael and Battara, It was my first thought too when I saw the blade. A rehilted bayonet. But bayonets are as far as I know of plain steel and smooth. This blade is hand forged. AG Maisey, Thanks for naming this dagger. I looked in my books and found in Stone on page 538: SANGU A Central Indian spear made entirely of steel. It has a long triangular or quadrangular head. You speak of "sangkuh" in Central Java and "buntut mimi" in East Java. Did those spearheads came from India to Java or where these spearheads made by empu's after their Indian brother's and mounted as a tombak? Looks like Tim was right then with his Indian shot.

24th June 2006, 01:48 AM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	In Jawa I have never seen them mounted as spearheads. They are usually mounted in dress that is reminiscent of a command baton. I have seen one in very old dress that was mounted as a keris.I do not believe they have ever been mounted as a tombak in Jawa. I do not think there is any Indian connection with the Javanese pieces. They have always reminded me of an old European bayonet pattern, and this may have been their origin, but I have not seen or owned any that were of European manufacture. All I have handled have been of Indonesian manufacture. Would it be possible for you to provide clear close-ups of the metal scabbard cover. Do you know if this is silver, silver plate, or an alloy, such as mamas?

24th June 2006, 05:38 AM	#9
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Hey Alan, do you have any idea as to the purpose of these blades. Was it meant as a functional weapon or was it more ceremonial ritualistic. I suppose that on the practical side that triangular blade would leave a pretty nasty hole. But is also reminds me of a phurpa which is strictly a ritual weapon.

24th June 2006, 10:17 AM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Thank you Henk. I was hoping I would recognise embossing of one of the types I am familiar with, but I do not. However, the construction of the pendok does look very Balinese; I am looking at the way the back panel of the pendok is folded up over the sides of the front panel. Silver is very easy to test. You buy a bottle of silver test from a jeweller`s supplier. It is very cheap and lasts for years. David, this is just one blade style amongst many. It is clearly a weapon, and was undoubtedly used as such. Purpose? Termination of human life. The baton style dress is more recent, just as tombak have been dressed as daggers for the last 100 years or so. Even the one I saw dressed as a keris, although the dress was old, was probably only 100 or so years old. It would not have gone back to, say, 1750-1850. Realistically, looking at Henk`s example it is probably a second half of the 20th century scabbard, the ivory somewhat older, and the blade much older. Who knows how many times the dress may have been changed or different styles used?

24th June 2006, 03:23 PM	#12
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Alan, Thanks for your lesson. Although we have a lot of malay weaponry here in Holland, this one was new for me and i have never seen one before. Thanks for your help, Alan. Henk

1st July 2006, 09:34 PM	#13
doecon Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 63	Henk, I think you have found yourself a modified european small sword in indonesian dress. The blade style is clearly not indonesian, but probably north european made (imported by the dutch?). It is probably cut (halfway) and resharpened. The dress is indeed a recent creation, as you can see from the wood (at the beginning of the scabbard) and the metalworks (silver?) There are plenty old european blades being modified in Indonesia, even in more recent times (1900's), your blade looks indeed a bit older. Try cleaning the blade propperly, maybe you still find more makers marks (Solingen?). My guess is its a mid to late 18th small sword.

1st July 2006, 10:48 PM	#15
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	There is little question that the sheath is recent work, though the hilt obviously has some age to it, but it clearly looks like Indonesian work to me. I have never seen a European blade with this type of pamor work.....and why would Mr. Maisey, a man with half a century (sorry Alan, not trying to make you feel old ) of experience and exposure to Indonesian weaponry so clearly identify this weapon by name(s) if he wasn't familar with it? It is obviously something he is familiar with.

2nd July 2006, 02:46 AM	#16
Ki Jayamalelo Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Germany Posts: 18	Triangular bayonets were used before 18 cent. Here are a lot of information.http://www.rememuseum.org.uk/arms/blade/armbay.htm#359

2nd July 2006, 09:50 AM	#18
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Gentlemen, I agree also with the members who agree with Alan. Although the remark has been made that it could be a rehilted european bayonet and that it was my first thought to, but the forging pattern doesn't match with a european manufactured bayonet. I've seen them in musea all over Europe but the steel is not forged in the way of mine example. Looking to the forging patterns I'm rather convinced it is a pamor blade.

2nd July 2006, 12:12 PM	#19
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,224	saw this one while looking thru http://old.blades.free.fr/other_malay/batakdagger.htm , under 'other edged weapons' sumatra, batak, cruciform or triangular blade?

3rd July 2006, 07:28 PM	#20
Ki Jayamalelo Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Germany Posts: 18	Hello Henk, you talk about "forging pattern" of your "dagger" but you must think this is an old bayonet of the 18 cent. This has been the first steps producing modern steel like cast steel. I think it was first Benjamin Huntsman who made the first crucible steel in 1742 in England. This dagger could be even older and could be in use by the British Troops in the time (1815) of Governor Raffles. For learning on manufacture of iron and steel the net has many information. KJ

3rd July 2006, 08:10 PM	#22
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	I do not think this has anything to do with European/British steel or bayonet and blade forms. I think it has its origins in the spears from Indo/Persia and other Asian influences on Indonesia.

3rd July 2006, 09:24 PM	#23
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Hey Henk, is the hilt easily removable like on a keris. It might be educational to have a look at the tang.

4th July 2006, 07:09 PM	#25
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Gentlemen, I'm very happy with your input. Nechesh, I could remove the hilt and made some pictures of the tang. During taking the pictures I noticed a very small stamp on the blade, hardly visible, but the pictures don't lie. It is very hard to see what the mark is even under a magnifying glass. I asked my daughter to look for me and she saw something like a N and a 4 or a triangle. On the picture I have a better image and I see something as PM or PN but it is very small and hardly to see with naked eyes. Ki Jayamalelo showed a link of bayonets with a triangular one. If you look at such a bayonet it is attached with a round elbowformed tube to the socket. The tang of my blade is square and doesn't show signs of reattachement to the blade. As far as I know those reattachements or welding spurs are easily to discover. I've seen often reattached peksi's to keris. The place were the peksi is reattached is always thicker and visible. I would like to hear your comments on these facts. Alan, I hope you will react as well. Attached Images

4th July 2006, 07:19 PM	#26
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	Which way up is the mark read????

4th July 2006, 07:29 PM	#27
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	European Well , I'm willing to eat my words . But what ? Plug bayonet ?

4th July 2006, 07:37 PM	#28
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Tim, Now that I'm looking a bit better to the pictures you can read the mark with the point towards you as PM and with the angle towards you as NJ or something. I really cann't make anyting of it and better pictures than these are not possible.

4th July 2006, 07:45 PM	#29
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	I still do not see a European bayonet. The mark, what we can see is not recognisably European. The brown bess type bayonets have thinner cutting edges.? They are not made of this type of steel. There seems to be no grinding on the blade? I suppose there is a wild chance that it could be some really early rich persons bayonet. Did rich people stand in line with bayonets?

5th July 2006, 06:31 PM	#30
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Not that I know, Tim. As far as I know farmers did join the battles of their lords in the middle ages. But their weapons where more their tools they used to work with on the fields. In the ages after the middle ages the battles where fought by armies with trained soldiers. But i don't know enough about this subject to give a good answer on that.