Hounslow Hilt

urbanspaceman · 1st November 2023, 07:38 PM

Jane Grey was crowned in 1553.
Her husband Guildford, and his father (Earl of Northumberland: John Dudley) were both executed in 1553; along with two of Guildford's brothers.
Jane was nearly pardoned but in the end, by 1554, it was all over bar the shouting.
Equally, Mary Tudor was crowned queen in 1553 having deposed Jane.
It was all about 1553.
It is, however, entirely possible that the blade was given a new hilt at Hounslow a century later.
ps
Mary made a 'Percy' Earl of Northumberland and also gave him Cumberland.
He was the one who contested Elizabeth's right to take copper from his land during the Battle of the Mines Royal. Eventually, Lizzy chopped his head off.

urbanspaceman · 1st November 2023, 07:40 PM

Thank-you Jim, there is a strong resemblance, especially taken together.

Triarii · 3rd November 2023, 02:10 PM

Curse you Urbanspaceman, I'm a big C17th nerd and I hadn't thought of this. Now it's bugging me.

I had thought that why in England are the so-called Hounslow hangers the only mid C17th British swords with curved blades, the basket hilts with 'Turkie' or 'semetry' blades recommended for 1630s militia notwithstanding, though I have only seen one surviving C17th Turcael and that's Royal Armouries No IX. 1015.

My theory is that the hangers were hunting swords, whose shape continued into the C20th. The staghorn grips and sawback blade on some reflecting their supposed use in dismembering deer etc. Their hilts are only seen in ornate forms, with chiselled and / or black and silver hilts, never in munition quality, so possibly carried by militia and trained bands officers and then becoming more widespread in the 1640s.

I have three, one with staghorn grip, one with a fluted bone grip and one with a wood(?) wrapped grip.

That's my pet theory anyway.

Jim McDougall · 3rd November 2023, 09:06 PM

So Triarii, there is someone else out there with this rare affliction!
Over the years it seems I have seen other 'turcael' but the one in Royal Armouries stands as the most readily accessible. Its like the fabled Scottish claymore (the real two handers), it is yet unclear how many of the genuine article survive, offhand it seems only about 6 or so. These things seem often to remain in obscurity often in clan holdings.

The hunting swords were indeed hangers/cuttoes which paralleled the munitions grade examples for military use. The general design as noted in the 'hirschfanger' did of course remain traditionally in place into 20th century.
These early hangers in Hounslow were of course used as 'hunting swords' however many references note these as intended for maritime use. While the serrated back was useful in the hunt for field dressing, at sea, these short, stout blades with that feature served well in clearing decks of rope etc.
While having these utilitarian intents, it is important to note that 'the hunt' was an event of the gentry and those of station. Naval officers also were inclined to have notable standing in the gentry.

The 'Hounslow school' or style did carry well through the 17th century even after the demise of that compound by just after mid century, and somewhat traditionally into the 18th.

Sure would like to see your examples!

Triarii · 4th November 2023, 05:13 PM

I think we're agreeing that for land and sea service they were initially gentry swords - hence only being seen in more ornate versions in the mid C17th before evolving into more munition quality for sea service. They continue through the late C17th but the pommel style changes and the blades get narrower.

Here are mine:

1st November 2023, 07:38 PM	#1
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 577	Lady Jane Jane Grey was crowned in 1553. Her husband Guildford, and his father (Earl of Northumberland: John Dudley) were both executed in 1553; along with two of Guildford's brothers. Jane was nearly pardoned but in the end, by 1554, it was all over bar the shouting. Equally, Mary Tudor was crowned queen in 1553 having deposed Jane. It was all about 1553. It is, however, entirely possible that the blade was given a new hilt at Hounslow a century later. ps Mary made a 'Percy' Earl of Northumberland and also gave him Cumberland. He was the one who contested Elizabeth's right to take copper from his land during the Battle of the Mines Royal. Eventually, Lizzy chopped his head off.

1st November 2023, 07:40 PM	#2
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 577	Early hilts Thank-you Jim, there is a strong resemblance, especially taken together.

4th November 2023, 05:13 PM	#5
Triarii Member Join Date: Oct 2021 Location: Bristol Posts: 122	I think we're agreeing that for land and sea service they were initially gentry swords - hence only being seen in more ornate versions in the mid C17th before evolving into more munition quality for sea service. They continue through the late C17th but the pommel style changes and the blades get narrower. Here are mine: Attached Images

3rd November 2023, 02:10 PM	#3
Triarii Member Join Date: Oct 2021 Location: Bristol Posts: 122	Curse you Urbanspaceman, I'm a big C17th nerd and I hadn't thought of this. Now it's bugging me. I had thought that why in England are the so-called Hounslow hangers the only mid C17th British swords with curved blades, the basket hilts with 'Turkie' or 'semetry' blades recommended for 1630s militia notwithstanding, though I have only seen one surviving C17th Turcael and that's Royal Armouries No IX. 1015. My theory is that the hangers were hunting swords, whose shape continued into the C20th. The staghorn grips and sawback blade on some reflecting their supposed use in dismembering deer etc. Their hilts are only seen in ornate forms, with chiselled and / or black and silver hilts, never in munition quality, so possibly carried by militia and trained bands officers and then becoming more widespread in the 1640s. I have three, one with staghorn grip, one with a fluted bone grip and one with a wood(?) wrapped grip. That's my pet theory anyway.

3rd November 2023, 09:06 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	So Triarii, there is someone else out there with this rare affliction! Over the years it seems I have seen other 'turcael' but the one in Royal Armouries stands as the most readily accessible. Its like the fabled Scottish claymore (the real two handers), it is yet unclear how many of the genuine article survive, offhand it seems only about 6 or so. These things seem often to remain in obscurity often in clan holdings. The hunting swords were indeed hangers/cuttoes which paralleled the munitions grade examples for military use. The general design as noted in the 'hirschfanger' did of course remain traditionally in place into 20th century. These early hangers in Hounslow were of course used as 'hunting swords' however many references note these as intended for maritime use. While the serrated back was useful in the hunt for field dressing, at sea, these short, stout blades with that feature served well in clearing decks of rope etc. While having these utilitarian intents, it is important to note that 'the hunt' was an event of the gentry and those of station. Naval officers also were inclined to have notable standing in the gentry. The 'Hounslow school' or style did carry well through the 17th century even after the demise of that compound by just after mid century, and somewhat traditionally into the 18th. Sure would like to see your examples!