What Constitutes a Kraton Keris?

drdavid · 1st July 2006, 07:36 AM

Hi all, a very interesting thread.
Boedhi adhitya when you said:

Quote:

The book bear some error: the keris pictures inverted, and some swapped

which particular pictures were swapped, page numbers would be helpful if you have the book to hand. (Or maybe you can help Blue Erf).

I have found at least one other thing in this book that I can't agree with and that is the Golok La Nggunti Rante (pge 79) which they say comes from Bali or perhaps Sri Lanka. I just discussed this piece with another forum member and we both agree it has to be a piha kheta which originated in Sri Lankan .

DrD

Mudi · 14th July 2006, 01:04 PM

This is good post Pak Nechesh

You ask

1. Are kraton kerises referring to the royal pusaka, or simply any keris that may be used/worn by a person working in the kraton, including the guards?

My reply is that any keris worn or in Kraton is Kraton keris. They may not be pusaka. All Kraton guards wear keris, but they are not all pusaka.

2. Must kraton kerises necessarily come out of the kraton armoury, or is it a reference to a certain level of quality?

My reply is that none of these are fact. There is no such kraton armoury, but all keris for kraton use are well made.

3. Are kraton kerises made by empus, or could they have been kerises owned by founding sultans/sunans of the kraton, which may not have been made by an empu?

Many keris in kraton very old. All made by empu.

4. Can kraton pieces be 'inducted'? i.e. purchased from somebody and added to the armoury? If so, how long must it be inside the kraton to be considered a kraton piece?

If Sultan buy keris then it is part of Kraton collection. Kraton koleksi di Yogyajakarta Surakarta have many keris not from Java.

5. "Rejected" kerises made by empu associated to a kraton - are these kraton pieces?

No.

Boedhi Adhitya · 25th July 2006, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mudi

This is good post Pak Nechesh

2. Must kraton kerises necessarily come out of the kraton armoury, or is it a reference to a certain level of quality?

My reply is that none of these are fact. There is no such kraton armoury, but all keris for kraton use are well made.

I do regret that I have to disagree with you, Pak Mudi. There were a kind of workshop which would be classified as 'Kraton Armoury' or in Javanese word 'Besalen' (which has no translation in Bahasa), the place where the empus worked. Every court in Java had it. The famous empus were Riyokusumo (Jogjakarta, HB V), Tarunadahana, Supadahana (HB VII - VIII), Jayasukadga, Wirasukadga (Surakarta PB IX-X), Karyodikromo (Jogjakarta, Pakualaman). The Besalen itself taken place inside the court, fully supported by the court, and their products were used by the court. Supowinangun was the empu of prime-ministry office of Jogjakarta. We see here, even the prime-ministry office (kepatihan) had empus. I could show you some anvil (or 'Paron', in Javanese, which, once again and strange enough, has no similar word in Bahasa to explain this massive block of iron) and hand-powered blower which still being kept in Jogjakarta Court, to show you some facts. Unfortunately, I cannot show you the court's kerises

It was the court responsibility to maintain and develop the 'arm and armour' technology, with obvious reason. After the occupation of Japan in Java and the struggle for Independence, the empu stop working and passed away before they handed down their knowledges, and the keris culture has fallen so deep, that it could be classified as 'extinct'. Today, after Empu Jeno Harumbrojo (the son of Supowinangun) passed away just 3 days before earthquake stuck Jogjakarta last May, once again, no empus works as they ancestor did. Even if someone do, some critical knowledges has realy lost, and this knowledge, unfortunately, has lost forever.

Quote:

3. Are kraton kerises made by empus, or could they have been kerises owned by founding sultans/sunans of the kraton, which may not have been made by an empu?

Many keris in kraton very old. All made by empu.

4. Can kraton pieces be 'inducted'? i.e. purchased from somebody and added to the armoury? If so, how long must it be inside the kraton to be considered a kraton piece?

If Sultan buy keris then it is part of Kraton collection. Kraton koleksi di Yogyajakarta Surakarta have many keris not from Java.

All made by empu is correct. 'very old' is debatable

There are NO Jalak/Bethok Budha, Pichitan, 'Sombro' or 'keris sajen/keris majapahit' in Jogjakarta Court's Pusaka Collection. All kerises are 'standard' kerises, with the best iron, steel, pamor and workmanship possible at the time the keris was made. And some could be considered as 'newly made', as it was made during the reign of HB VII/VIII, when the empus still work. NO kerises attributed from outside of Java was held in Bangsal Prabayeksa, the most sacred building in Kraton Jogjakarta where main pusakas (these are, 150's kerises, spears, 'The Holy Fire', etc) were kept.

About the book, drdavid, I could only comment on 'Keraton Ngayogyakarta Hadiningrat' specifically on heirloom section. I don't know the pages, but the pictures which were swapped are Kyai Toyatinaban and Kyai Purboniyat. The one which captioned as 'Toyatinaban' should be 'Purboniyat', and vice versa.

As Rick said, " Buy the keris, not the story, and no matter if it's a new keris or old keris, always buy quality kerises."

wish may help,

boedhi adhitya

A. G. Maisey · 26th July 2006, 12:23 AM

Pak Boedhi, I endorse your comments.

In my experience the Javanese courts did maintain armouries in both the English sense of a place where arms are kept, and the US sense of a place where arms are made. Note the variation in Standard English :"armoury", and US English: "amory".

The "armoury" where weapons were made was, as you note, a "besalen". I believe this would come into Bahasa Indonesia as "bengkel tukang besi" (or pandai besi).

It would come into English as "blacksmith's forge" or "smithy".

The "armoury" where weapons were kept would come into Bahasa Indonesia as "gudang persenjataan".

The Bahasa Indonesia for "anvil" is "landasan". A "paron" is an anvil, thus I feel that an adequate translation of "paron" to Bahasa Indonesia would be "landasan".

The hand powered blower used by smiths in the old days in Indonesia is called an ububan, it consists of two upright bambu tubes fitted with plungers set with feathers. Raising and lowering the plungers forces a stream of air into an expansion box which , when under pressure, delivers a continuous stream of air to the fire.

The fire itself was (and is) often no more than a depression in the ground, and was side blown.

The last time I saw ububan in use was about ten years ago in a coach builder's workshop in Kartosuro.

I`d guess some of the people in the blacksmith`s community up at Boyolali would still be using ububan.

An adequate translation of this word "ububan" to English would be "bellows".

Montino Bourbon · 26th July 2006, 03:53 AM

New things are discovered every day, and some of these are rediscoveries of old things.

Wootz technology, which seemed to disappear a long time ago, has been re-discovered and even improved upon. Certainly Richard Furrer and others have made new wootz which is as good as the old. All it lacks is antiquity, and that is only gained through time. Give one of Richard's works a few hundred years, and if it is kept in good condition it will even have that.

Likewise, spiritual rediscoveries are made even now; witness the 'tertons', the Tibetan spiritual rediscoverers of old yogas and other things that disappeared at one time only to emerge for a reason at this time.

So why not admit that the spiritual and physical art of the empus can be rediscovered, and has? I believe that there are masters now making objects that will in the future be considered 'pusaka'. Certainly the work that I put in with an object that responds to me makes it function as a pusaka, and I feel the energy from it. I may call it by another name, but the cause and effect are the same.

Now a 'kraton' keris is, no doubt, a keris that has a particular place in Javanese society, and a very refined and particular one. I believe, however, that in this thread we are talking about an energy more than anything else, and one that is part of a keris that is (or was) made in conjunction with a spiritual outlook and practice. I also believe that this type of energy is in various modern works, including some made right here in the USA. It may not have the exact flavor of a 'kraton; keris, but it is absolutely tangible and useable.

I hope that I have not strayed too far from the original purpose of this thread.

nechesh · 26th July 2006, 05:02 AM

Thanks for everyones input in this thread. Montino, just to be clear about my original purpose in starting this thread, it was a reaction to a now closed thread which brought into question the accuacy of the description of certain ebay auctions using the term "Kraton Keris" as a title and selling point. I started this thread in order to investigate the question removed from the connection to those specific auctions. We quite often will see kraton association stated or at least hinted at in ebay auctions. I do understand your thoughts about modern pieces and pusaka, but i would disagree "that in this thread we are talking about an energy more than anything else". The question of whether a keris is a kraton piece or not is a far more specific one than that.

Boedhi Adhitya · 26th July 2006, 05:12 AM

Thank you very much for your kind comments, Mr. Maisey. I have to admit that my English has not improve further than spelling A, B, C,

About the 'ububan' we discuss, it is certainly correct, as you describe. I choose to use 'hand-powered blower' to describe 'the things' belongs to Jogja Court because it is not a traditional 'ububan' style bellow as you describe, but an european-made bellow, likes a very big squirrel-cage blower, but powered by a single-hand. You just have to turn the pedal in circular motion. Technological improvement, I believe

A little bit to add, IMHO, 'ububan' is a javanese word. A non-javanese Indonesian would not understand the meaning easily. Believe me, because I myself is not a Javanese. It was the keris which push me to learn Javanese language, because all described in Javanese, not to mention if you meet some 'ningrat' (royal families), they may use the 'kromo' which make my head dizzy

'landasan' has general meaning in Indonesia, just like 'base' in English. It cannot translated exactly to 'anvil', unless you add a comment/context. Without context, it might means anything, likes 'landasan pesawat terbang' (runway). On the contrary, 'anvil' and 'paron' are a single word which directly describe 'the thing', that is a block of iron where the smith use to forge the iron. Any other meaning of 'anvil' and 'paron' may need a comment/context.

The reasons why I emphasize on this 'wording case' because some philosopher argue that the knowledges of someones or even a culture reflected from the words they have to describe a things. If they don't have a single word to describe 'the thing', than it is very likely that they don't familiar or even know 'the thing'. (please don't ask me the name of philosopher

)

Thus, IMHO, Indonesian culture in general, doesn't familiar with iron processing technology. You cannot just go to Jakarta and meet the peoples there and asking "Do you know the meaning of Besalen, Ububan, or Paron ?" Most of them see paron only on Roadrunner and Coyote Cartoon, but may only describe 'the thing' as 'a big-black-heavy-iron block where the smith forge the iron' or 'a big-black-seems heavy-block that crack the Coyote head', but not 'landasan' as most dictionary entries may describe

A. G. Maisey · 26th July 2006, 06:03 AM

Sorry for my misunderstanding of the hand powered blower, Pak Boedhi. The type of thing you describe belongs to a later age than the ububan, certainly.

In fact, these days some smiths use broken electric blowers and power them with a strap driven by a bicycle wheel. Same sort of idea as the blower that you describe.

As for the word ububan, yes, I agree a lot of people of the present generation may not recognise this word, but that is not because of its origin, rather because it is something from a time past.

In fact, the word "ububan" has come into the Indonesian language, and is officially a Bahasa Indonesia word. At least, it is listed in Indonesian dictionaries, and Indonesian-English dictionaries, and in these is not identified as Javanese, even though "ubub" and "ububan" are Old Javanese words.

When I speak of "Old Javanese" I am speaking of the Javanese language as it was prior to the second Kingdom of Mataram.

Again, in respect of the other words---beselen, and paron---I agree, people of this generation, and most especially if from Jakarta might be a little confused by them, but only to the same extent as people on the streets of New York, or Sydney might be confused by the names of things of a time past. Present day confusion does not remove a word from a language, it just makes it a little more difficult to easily recognise.

Similarly with landasan. Landasan comes from "landas":- "base", or "substratum"; "landasan" when combined with another word can have various meanings, for instance:- "landasan kata"="proof","landasan udara"="landing strip", however, the word "landasan" used by itself has only one meaning, and that is "anvil".

In fact, the word "paron" comes from the Old Javanese "parwan" and is one of several alternative spellings in Old Javanese for this word. Zoetmulder translates paron, parwan, parean, paryen, and paren as paron and landasan.

Please forgive me for being so pedantic about this matter of word usage, however, although I am not a native speaker of Indonesian or Javanese, for about 30 years I have had close contact with smiths and pandai keris in Jawa, and have had to learn their language to communicate. Talk to me about Javanese dance, or wayang, and I do not have the vocabulary to communicate at all. As for Krama, and Krama Inggil--I just don`t want to know. My daughter speaks it to perfection ---so I have been told--- but that only happened after she got married.

Boedhi Adhitya · 26th July 2006, 07:46 AM

Quote:

So why not admit that the spiritual and physical art of the empus can be rediscovered, and has? I believe that there are masters now making objects that will in the future be considered 'pusaka'. Certainly the work that I put in with an object that responds to me makes it function as a pusaka, and I feel the energy from it. I may call it by another name, but the cause and effect are the same

Yes, Mr Montino, technically and ritually, keris making process may be easily duplicated. It has not extinct yet, as some documentation on Empu Djeno Harumbrojo has been made. It is 'The Traditional Iron Knowledges' that had been lost. As some traditional book on keris wrote, there were many kind of iron, e.g. Karangkijang, Pulasani, Balitung, Kamboja, etc, which each of them may have specific 'power'. The Empu then mix these iron on certain composition, according to what 'power' he wished. It is not only about the ritual or forging technique, but also about the materials, according to traditional knowledge, of course. Until now, many keris makers still pursue on how to make greenish color exhibited by many nem-neman keris, not to mention the 'sulak ungu' (slightly purple) or ngelar glathik (greyish iron). But they far from succed, at least until now. Empu Djeno admited that he didn't master this knowledges since his father has not taught him yet before he passed away. Without this knowledges, any keris made today could only classified as handycraft, a work of art, a heirloom (if inherited by someone) or a weapon (but I doubt, since many keris maker didn't quench their works today, considering the risk), but never 'tosan aji' or 'honorable iron' in traditional senses, since no one really knew what kind of iron he forges. But perhaps, this knowledges might only a myth.

Once again thank you for your comment, Mr. Maisey. I do agree that present day confusion does not remove a word from a language, but I'm afraid more discussion will bring us to Etymology, which certainly an unproper topic in this forum

(and certainly, I'm not the one to whom someone should discuss etymology

). Just a massage for your admirable daughter, if she please, she should learn one step further, the 'Bagongan' language, which is spoken only in Keraton, until today. It is easy (if you already master the krama), but it's limited use make it very exclusive. I cannot imagine how Javanese react if a foreigner spoke it

Best regards,

boedhi adhitya

26th July 2006, 03:53 AM	#5
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	Rediscovery New things are discovered every day, and some of these are rediscoveries of old things. Wootz technology, which seemed to disappear a long time ago, has been re-discovered and even improved upon. Certainly Richard Furrer and others have made new wootz which is as good as the old. All it lacks is antiquity, and that is only gained through time. Give one of Richard's works a few hundred years, and if it is kept in good condition it will even have that. Likewise, spiritual rediscoveries are made even now; witness the 'tertons', the Tibetan spiritual rediscoverers of old yogas and other things that disappeared at one time only to emerge for a reason at this time. So why not admit that the spiritual and physical art of the empus can be rediscovered, and has? I believe that there are masters now making objects that will in the future be considered 'pusaka'. Certainly the work that I put in with an object that responds to me makes it function as a pusaka, and I feel the energy from it. I may call it by another name, but the cause and effect are the same. Now a 'kraton' keris is, no doubt, a keris that has a particular place in Javanese society, and a very refined and particular one. I believe, however, that in this thread we are talking about an energy more than anything else, and one that is part of a keris that is (or was) made in conjunction with a spiritual outlook and practice. I also believe that this type of energy is in various modern works, including some made right here in the USA. It may not have the exact flavor of a 'kraton; keris, but it is absolutely tangible and useable. I hope that I have not strayed too far from the original purpose of this thread.

26th July 2006, 05:12 AM	#7
Boedhi Adhitya Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 103	Thank you very much for your kind comments, Mr. Maisey. I have to admit that my English has not improve further than spelling A, B, C, About the 'ububan' we discuss, it is certainly correct, as you describe. I choose to use 'hand-powered blower' to describe 'the things' belongs to Jogja Court because it is not a traditional 'ububan' style bellow as you describe, but an european-made bellow, likes a very big squirrel-cage blower, but powered by a single-hand. You just have to turn the pedal in circular motion. Technological improvement, I believe A little bit to add, IMHO, 'ububan' is a javanese word. A non-javanese Indonesian would not understand the meaning easily. Believe me, because I myself is not a Javanese. It was the keris which push me to learn Javanese language, because all described in Javanese, not to mention if you meet some 'ningrat' (royal families), they may use the 'kromo' which make my head dizzy 'landasan' has general meaning in Indonesia, just like 'base' in English. It cannot translated exactly to 'anvil', unless you add a comment/context. Without context, it might means anything, likes 'landasan pesawat terbang' (runway). On the contrary, 'anvil' and 'paron' are a single word which directly describe 'the thing', that is a block of iron where the smith use to forge the iron. Any other meaning of 'anvil' and 'paron' may need a comment/context. The reasons why I emphasize on this 'wording case' because some philosopher argue that the knowledges of someones or even a culture reflected from the words they have to describe a things. If they don't have a single word to describe 'the thing', than it is very likely that they don't familiar or even know 'the thing'. (please don't ask me the name of philosopher ) Thus, IMHO, Indonesian culture in general, doesn't familiar with iron processing technology. You cannot just go to Jakarta and meet the peoples there and asking "Do you know the meaning of Besalen, Ububan, or Paron ?" Most of them see paron only on Roadrunner and Coyote Cartoon, but may only describe 'the thing' as 'a big-black-heavy-iron block where the smith forge the iron' or 'a big-black-seems heavy-block that crack the Coyote head', but not 'landasan' as most dictionary entries may describe Last edited by Boedhi Adhitya; 26th July 2006 at 06:25 AM.

14th July 2006, 01:04 PM	#2
Mudi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Makassar, (Ujung Pandang), Sulawesi, Indonesia Posts: 38	This is good post Pak Nechesh You ask 1. Are kraton kerises referring to the royal pusaka, or simply any keris that may be used/worn by a person working in the kraton, including the guards? My reply is that any keris worn or in Kraton is Kraton keris. They may not be pusaka. All Kraton guards wear keris, but they are not all pusaka. 2. Must kraton kerises necessarily come out of the kraton armoury, or is it a reference to a certain level of quality? My reply is that none of these are fact. There is no such kraton armoury, but all keris for kraton use are well made. 3. Are kraton kerises made by empus, or could they have been kerises owned by founding sultans/sunans of the kraton, which may not have been made by an empu? Many keris in kraton very old. All made by empu. 4. Can kraton pieces be 'inducted'? i.e. purchased from somebody and added to the armoury? If so, how long must it be inside the kraton to be considered a kraton piece? If Sultan buy keris then it is part of Kraton collection. Kraton koleksi di Yogyajakarta Surakarta have many keris not from Java. 5. "Rejected" kerises made by empu associated to a kraton - are these kraton pieces? No.

26th July 2006, 12:23 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Pak Boedhi, I endorse your comments. In my experience the Javanese courts did maintain armouries in both the English sense of a place where arms are kept, and the US sense of a place where arms are made. Note the variation in Standard English :"armoury", and US English: "amory". The "armoury" where weapons were made was, as you note, a "besalen". I believe this would come into Bahasa Indonesia as "bengkel tukang besi" (or pandai besi). It would come into English as "blacksmith's forge" or "smithy". The "armoury" where weapons were kept would come into Bahasa Indonesia as "gudang persenjataan". The Bahasa Indonesia for "anvil" is "landasan". A "paron" is an anvil, thus I feel that an adequate translation of "paron" to Bahasa Indonesia would be "landasan". The hand powered blower used by smiths in the old days in Indonesia is called an ububan, it consists of two upright bambu tubes fitted with plungers set with feathers. Raising and lowering the plungers forces a stream of air into an expansion box which , when under pressure, delivers a continuous stream of air to the fire. The fire itself was (and is) often no more than a depression in the ground, and was side blown. The last time I saw ububan in use was about ten years ago in a coach builder's workshop in Kartosuro. I`d guess some of the people in the blacksmith`s community up at Boyolali would still be using ububan. An adequate translation of this word "ububan" to English would be "bellows".

26th July 2006, 05:02 AM	#6
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Thanks for everyones input in this thread. Montino, just to be clear about my original purpose in starting this thread, it was a reaction to a now closed thread which brought into question the accuacy of the description of certain ebay auctions using the term "Kraton Keris" as a title and selling point. I started this thread in order to investigate the question removed from the connection to those specific auctions. We quite often will see kraton association stated or at least hinted at in ebay auctions. I do understand your thoughts about modern pieces and pusaka, but i would disagree "that in this thread we are talking about an energy more than anything else". The question of whether a keris is a kraton piece or not is a far more specific one than that.

26th July 2006, 06:03 AM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Sorry for my misunderstanding of the hand powered blower, Pak Boedhi. The type of thing you describe belongs to a later age than the ububan, certainly. In fact, these days some smiths use broken electric blowers and power them with a strap driven by a bicycle wheel. Same sort of idea as the blower that you describe. As for the word ububan, yes, I agree a lot of people of the present generation may not recognise this word, but that is not because of its origin, rather because it is something from a time past. In fact, the word "ububan" has come into the Indonesian language, and is officially a Bahasa Indonesia word. At least, it is listed in Indonesian dictionaries, and Indonesian-English dictionaries, and in these is not identified as Javanese, even though "ubub" and "ububan" are Old Javanese words. When I speak of "Old Javanese" I am speaking of the Javanese language as it was prior to the second Kingdom of Mataram. Again, in respect of the other words---beselen, and paron---I agree, people of this generation, and most especially if from Jakarta might be a little confused by them, but only to the same extent as people on the streets of New York, or Sydney might be confused by the names of things of a time past. Present day confusion does not remove a word from a language, it just makes it a little more difficult to easily recognise. Similarly with landasan. Landasan comes from "landas":- "base", or "substratum"; "landasan" when combined with another word can have various meanings, for instance:- "landasan kata"="proof","landasan udara"="landing strip", however, the word "landasan" used by itself has only one meaning, and that is "anvil". In fact, the word "paron" comes from the Old Javanese "parwan" and is one of several alternative spellings in Old Javanese for this word. Zoetmulder translates paron, parwan, parean, paryen, and paren as paron and landasan. Please forgive me for being so pedantic about this matter of word usage, however, although I am not a native speaker of Indonesian or Javanese, for about 30 years I have had close contact with smiths and pandai keris in Jawa, and have had to learn their language to communicate. Talk to me about Javanese dance, or wayang, and I do not have the vocabulary to communicate at all. As for Krama, and Krama Inggil--I just don`t want to know. My daughter speaks it to perfection ---so I have been told--- but that only happened after she got married.