Trade axe/tomahawk NE America 18th c.

werecow · 24th September 2023, 01:12 AM

Interesting that you mention the Dutch Jim; my mind went to the Dutch Walloon swords.

Jim McDougall · 24th September 2023, 03:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by werecow

Interesting that you mention the Dutch Jim; my mind went to the Dutch Walloon swords.

Yup, thats the clover I was thinking of!

Jim McDougall · 24th September 2023, 09:47 PM

Just browsing through Hothem (p.84) and a round eye example remarkably similar is shown as c. 1750 and with a six petal flower in this manner in same blade location, noting probable Austrian origin (no further explanation, however Seven Years War comes to mind).

C4RL · 4th October 2023, 11:01 AM

Hello, I'm a Brit & have lived in Spain since 95, I've have had an interest in edged tools for a long time, I have a large collection of hatchets from this & surrounding counties.

I'd say the example you have originated in Spain or Portugal, possibly France & is carbon steel, I imagine 100 years old maximum, production line produced not blacksmith , the eye is the giveaway to it being cast not "wrap" forged. They are pretty common here in these three countries just like your example.

It's a hatchet, not a tomahawk, not a weapon (thought you are free to use it as you wish

).

I have many examples thought I can't shed light on your particular marking (the letters are owners initials), there were hundreds of different ones.
I also have older wrought iron hatchets that were produced in the Basque region of Spain where ore was mined, a big industry evolved making heads that were transported across "the pond" to be used for trading, loose heads packed in barrels.

Some images. (I can upload many more images, thought these are farm/smallholder tools not weapons ). Showing various cast & wrought examples, I can upload more of my examples if anyone is interested, if it's not too far off topic. Thanks.

Interested Party · 5th October 2023, 04:48 PM

I would love more images! More resources are always better. The ax as a weapon or tool question comes up regularly on the forum. My personal opinion is that if you go back to the period of flintlocks in North America is that the ax as a tool or weapon was interchangeable. Though I believe most were primarily tools from what I can tell.

C4RL · 5th October 2023, 05:32 PM

I can post some more images, I'll sort some out.

A screwdriver or house brick can be a weapon.
These hatchets were tools in the countries they were manufactured in the period they were made. I'll find some images of what's still being produced.

It's not in the usual use of language here (UK, Spain) to refer to anything as a weapon in everyday language, things are called by their names, eg axe, hatchet, knife.
Talking about a historical "weapon" yes, but the O.Ps example isn't historical, they are still being used.

M ELEY · 6th October 2023, 09:36 AM

They were indeed tools back in Europe, but here in the New World, transported by ships in the thousands to be used on the frontier and traded to the Native Americans, I can assure you they were used as both. Many trade axes of the round poll type still turn up as Indian weapons, complete with brass tack decorations, beadwork, wirework, etc. Hartzler's tomahawk book shows numerous examples. There is a pattern of evolution of the axe from weapon to weapon/tool to finally only as a tool in the latter (19th) century in the states. Ship's boarding axes are another classic example. They were both a tool and a weapon, used by boarding parties to storm the deck (well documented, BTW) and as a handy weapon in a pinch. In later years (mid-19th c) they became strictly a fire tool, patterning the first fire aces that were to follow.

4th October 2023, 11:01 AM	#4
C4RL Member Join Date: Sep 2023 Posts: 50	Hello, I'm a Brit & have lived in Spain since 95, I've have had an interest in edged tools for a long time, I have a large collection of hatchets from this & surrounding counties. I'd say the example you have originated in Spain or Portugal, possibly France & is carbon steel, I imagine 100 years old maximum, production line produced not blacksmith , the eye is the giveaway to it being cast not "wrap" forged. They are pretty common here in these three countries just like your example. It's a hatchet, not a tomahawk, not a weapon (thought you are free to use it as you wish ). I have many examples thought I can't shed light on your particular marking (the letters are owners initials), there were hundreds of different ones. I also have older wrought iron hatchets that were produced in the Basque region of Spain where ore was mined, a big industry evolved making heads that were transported across "the pond" to be used for trading, loose heads packed in barrels. Some images. (I can upload many more images, thought these are farm/smallholder tools not weapons ). Showing various cast & wrought examples, I can upload more of my examples if anyone is interested, if it's not too far off topic. Thanks. Attached Images

24th September 2023, 01:12 AM	#1
werecow Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: Leiden, NL Posts: 588	Interesting that you mention the Dutch Jim; my mind went to the Dutch Walloon swords.

24th September 2023, 09:47 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,458	Just browsing through Hothem (p.84) and a round eye example remarkably similar is shown as c. 1750 and with a six petal flower in this manner in same blade location, noting probable Austrian origin (no further explanation, however Seven Years War comes to mind).

5th October 2023, 04:48 PM	#5
Interested Party Member Join Date: Dec 2019 Location: Eastern Sierra Posts: 505	I would love more images! More resources are always better. The ax as a weapon or tool question comes up regularly on the forum. My personal opinion is that if you go back to the period of flintlocks in North America is that the ax as a tool or weapon was interchangeable. Though I believe most were primarily tools from what I can tell.

5th October 2023, 05:32 PM	#6
C4RL Member Join Date: Sep 2023 Posts: 50	I can post some more images, I'll sort some out. A screwdriver or house brick can be a weapon. These hatchets were tools in the countries they were manufactured in the period they were made. I'll find some images of what's still being produced. It's not in the usual use of language here (UK, Spain) to refer to anything as a weapon in everyday language, things are called by their names, eg axe, hatchet, knife. Talking about a historical "weapon" yes, but the O.Ps example isn't historical, they are still being used.

6th October 2023, 09:36 AM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,184	They were indeed tools back in Europe, but here in the New World, transported by ships in the thousands to be used on the frontier and traded to the Native Americans, I can assure you they were used as both. Many trade axes of the round poll type still turn up as Indian weapons, complete with brass tack decorations, beadwork, wirework, etc. Hartzler's tomahawk book shows numerous examples. There is a pattern of evolution of the axe from weapon to weapon/tool to finally only as a tool in the latter (19th) century in the states. Ship's boarding axes are another classic example. They were both a tool and a weapon, used by boarding parties to storm the deck (well documented, BTW) and as a handy weapon in a pinch. In later years (mid-19th c) they became strictly a fire tool, patterning the first fire aces that were to follow.