Portuguese rapier blades

[fernando]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

... because I remain convinced they have been re-hilted...Notice Graham's man (Tim Roth) in the Rob Roy film is using a transitional-ish rapier with a flat blade sharpened on both edges. I wonder who decided on that, and why?

If you wish, you may take a look at what they say about the 1806 pattern Portuguese officer's sword, in what touches blade exceptions 'allowed' in their regulations ... something i guess would also take place in other nations.


.

[Jim McDougall]

It is difficult to take a pragmatic approach in assessing the two sword examples posted as there are so many variables as far as the intent in their present state. It seems pretty clear these are remounted with vintage rapier blades, which was why I posted the rapier blade from a Spanish shipwreck off Panama (1681) illustrating these blade forms, which were in use into 18th c. in some degree.

The Spaniards used a distinct style of fencing known as destreza, which by the 18th century was falling out of favor as the French school began to take over. With this, the style involved both cut and thrust and shorter (faster) blades.
English fencing followed primarily French (and Italian of course which often paralleled).
* the Tim Roth sword in "Rob Roy" was a dish type rapier (c.1640s) as known in England, and would have been quite dated by the period of 'Rob Roy' in the early 18thc. The contest between these dramatically different sword types would be as interesting as portrayed in the film, and the Scots, while relying on brute strength and cutting power were well versed in some fencing skills. There are numerous volumes on Scottish swordsmanship (Hope, McBane, Angelo, Sinclair et al).
The choice of the rapier of the English gentry vs. the Highlander with broadsword was obviously highly symbolic.

It must be remembered that dueling was much contended with concerns over blade lengths and long blades were often deemed illegal in many cases.

The use of the civilian rapier remained in many cases somewhat outdated in observance of tradition and heritage with the exception of course was the small sword and dueling. The Spaniards maintained use of their long outdated cup hilt rapiers for well over a century later and while often derided by other nationality swordsmen, they remained indeed most formidable opponents. As far as later use or contrary to popular present fashion as with Spain,it does not seem unusual that similar situations would follow in the courts and gentry of other nations, including England of course .

The silver hilt rapier (the term is of course loosely used for small swords and any light thrusting blade sword) is of a fashion of c. 1790s (as highly embellished diamente work) with tall urn pommel. The use of a vintage or heirloom rapier blade would be understandable in the status oriented context. It would be interesting to trace the makers mark at ricasso.

The brass hilt with the extraordinarily long 40" blade may have similar circumstance, and is more aligned with the court sword styles popular in Georgian period but recalling the down turned guard on earlier swords such as hirshfangers or cuttoes. Again, it is a matter of personal preference, but for dueling as well as for court wear, such a long blade would be detrimental as awkward.

In all, these are 'rapier' blades of notable vintage mounted in later hilts, as often the case, and reflect the personal preference of those who owned them. They do not reflect any particular classification or period type as personal preferences in blades and hilts dictated many variations in these sword forms which indeed existed contemporarily over long periods. The famed 'colichemarde' blade which focused on dueling remained in favor in the military long after falling out of favor in the civilian sector. Military heritage and tradition often is a factor which brings these kinds of anomalies into being it would seem.

[Radboud]

As Jim says, for many officers or gentlemen, blade choice was a personal preference; there could be any number of reasons for an older blade to be mounted on a new hilt (reference the Andera Ferrara blades found on 19th-century hilts). Or for a newly made blade to follow an 'older' fashion.

As an example of the Colichmarde blade being used in the late 18th Century, this is a French m1767 Infantry Officers epee with one:



Such an example with a fairly precise date makes applying hard and fast rules difficult.

Here are some examples of smallswords made for the Spanish fencing style:





The first has an 88cm blade (from the cup), while the others all use so-called 'rapier' blades, probably dating from the mid-18th to late 18th Century. This goes some way to suggesting this type of blade was still being produced even that late. Going by the hilt style, the last two could be as late as the 1790 to 1810s.

Regarding the rules of duelling, a lot depends on the culture and time that the duel was set, and it would be difficult to infer anything from them without first accurately placing that sword in a specific time and place. I am reminded of the duel Abraham Lincon fought, where, as the challenged party, he got to set the rules of the duel. Because he had a significant height and reach advantage over his opponent, he stipulated that the duel be fought from each end of a plank. Negating his opponent's ability to hit him.

Not surprisingly, Abraham Lincon won the duel.

[urbanspaceman]

Gentlemen... thank-you, this has been a most enlightening endeavour.
I found my final answer on a dealer's website and I enclose it below.
These slim blade rapiers had the same hilts as 'Military' rapiers. Almost certainly as equally varied.
Have a fine weekend. I'm off to play with latest acquisition (a huge early Sterling on an equally huge Shotley Bridge broadsword blade).

[Radboud]

Another interesting example of an 18th Century Spanish smallsword with a 900mm ‘rapier’ blade:

http://www.vicentetoledo.com/espada-...e-historico/19

[urbanspaceman]

Thank-you.
This supports another curiosity of mine:
I have a Gill-made 'short' smallsword, custom made for a naval officer that has been unique in my experience so far. Now I have sight of another. My blade is only 27" long yet the hilt is enormous. I had always presumed the short blade was a naval preference and now I have additional support for my presumption.
I also have sight of the use of an heirloom rapier blade in a smallsword.
Thanks again.

[fernando]

Say Keith, what do you think (or know) is the word/s in the blade spine, after "warranted"; not the usual "never to fail" ...