Portuguese rapier blades

[urbanspaceman]

So: I am reminded Jim, of that Dutch duelling rapier/smallsword of the late 1600s... the one you have your eye on (see attached.
I don't know why I didn't hop over to that conclusion.
Here is a virtually identical blade inasmuch as it is thing and sharp and reasonably long.
This must have been before the 'First Blood' rules appeared.
But, I am convinced that brass hilted sword of mine with the 40" blade was longer before it was hilted thusly so my obvious next question is "What sort of hilts did these blades have back closer to the end of the 1600s".
Has anybody seen a long narrow rapier blade hilted as per the end of the 17thC?
It is beginning to appear that the transition to smaller swords began earlier than I had imagined if the English civil war Cavalier rapiers are anything to go by.
Am I missing something here?

[urbanspaceman]

A swashbuckler is a genre of European adventure literature that focuses on a heroic protagonist stock character who is skilled in swordsmanship, acrobatics, guile and possesses chivalrous ideals. A "swashbuckler" protagonist is heroic, daring, and idealistic: he rescues damsels in distress, protects the downtrodden, and uses duels to defend his honor or that of a lady or to avenge a comrade.
Swashbucklers often engage in daring and romantic adventures with bravado or flamboyance. Swashbuckler heroes are gentleman adventurers who dress elegantly and flamboyantly in coats, waistcoats, tight breeches, large feathered hats, and high leather boots, and they are armed with the thin rapiers used by aristocrats.

[urbanspaceman]

Am I right in realising that two styles of rapier existed contemporaneously?
The long, heavy, battlefield sword with cutting edges; and the not-so-long, narrow blades with no cutting edges for civilian wear.

[Radboud]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Am I right in realising that two styles of rapier existed contemporaneously?
The long, heavy, battlefield sword with cutting edges; and the not-so-long, narrow blades with no cutting edges for civilian wear.

I think our modern mindset likes to group everything into its own neat pockets, while the reality is that several types of swords co-existed simultaneously depending on the owners' location, fighting style, purpose, preference and wealth. Some of these swords we can easily group into a 'rapier' pocket, others into the 'smallsword' pocket. But many are just too grey.

So-call 'civilian rapiers' and smallswords were carried on the battlefield, while we also see soldiers in period art armed with complex hilted rapier style swords.

Maybe grouping swords by the fighting style rather than appearance would be easier. For example, rapier styles use both cuts (delivered from the wrist) and thrusts with a grip where you loop one or two fingers over the crossguard. Smallswords are thrust only with a grip that 'pinches' the quillon block. In contrast, broadswords and backswords are held in a hammer or handshake grip and used with sweeping, whole-body cuts.

Matt Easton has recently published a video with his criticism of the 'Military Rapier' term that raises some good points.

[urbanspaceman]

Thanks for that suggestion about Matt's recent video.
I think my issue returns again and again to the question of what sort of hilts would have been on those swords of mine originally, because I remain convinced they have been re-hilted.
Incidentally, my Shotley Bridge small-sword, from 1688, used a narrow broad-sword blade which is actually the same length as the SB horseman's sword, just having a lighter, fancier hilt and a more narrow blade. I don't think Scots and Northerners trusted the lightness and lack of cutting edge in the fashionable alternatives. Notice Graham's man (Tim Roth) in the Rob Roy film is using a transitional-ish rapier with a flat blade sharpened on both edges. I wonder who decided on that, and why?

[fernando]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

... because I remain convinced they have been re-hilted...Notice Graham's man (Tim Roth) in the Rob Roy film is using a transitional-ish rapier with a flat blade sharpened on both edges. I wonder who decided on that, and why?

If you wish, you may take a look at what they say about the 1806 pattern Portuguese officer's sword, in what touches blade exceptions 'allowed' in their regulations ... something i guess would also take place in other nations.


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[Jim McDougall]

It is difficult to take a pragmatic approach in assessing the two sword examples posted as there are so many variables as far as the intent in their present state. It seems pretty clear these are remounted with vintage rapier blades, which was why I posted the rapier blade from a Spanish shipwreck off Panama (1681) illustrating these blade forms, which were in use into 18th c. in some degree.

The Spaniards used a distinct style of fencing known as destreza, which by the 18th century was falling out of favor as the French school began to take over. With this, the style involved both cut and thrust and shorter (faster) blades.
English fencing followed primarily French (and Italian of course which often paralleled).
* the Tim Roth sword in "Rob Roy" was a dish type rapier (c.1640s) as known in England, and would have been quite dated by the period of 'Rob Roy' in the early 18thc. The contest between these dramatically different sword types would be as interesting as portrayed in the film, and the Scots, while relying on brute strength and cutting power were well versed in some fencing skills. There are numerous volumes on Scottish swordsmanship (Hope, McBane, Angelo, Sinclair et al).
The choice of the rapier of the English gentry vs. the Highlander with broadsword was obviously highly symbolic.

It must be remembered that dueling was much contended with concerns over blade lengths and long blades were often deemed illegal in many cases.

The use of the civilian rapier remained in many cases somewhat outdated in observance of tradition and heritage with the exception of course was the small sword and dueling. The Spaniards maintained use of their long outdated cup hilt rapiers for well over a century later and while often derided by other nationality swordsmen, they remained indeed most formidable opponents. As far as later use or contrary to popular present fashion as with Spain,it does not seem unusual that similar situations would follow in the courts and gentry of other nations, including England of course .

The silver hilt rapier (the term is of course loosely used for small swords and any light thrusting blade sword) is of a fashion of c. 1790s (as highly embellished diamente work) with tall urn pommel. The use of a vintage or heirloom rapier blade would be understandable in the status oriented context. It would be interesting to trace the makers mark at ricasso.

The brass hilt with the extraordinarily long 40" blade may have similar circumstance, and is more aligned with the court sword styles popular in Georgian period but recalling the down turned guard on earlier swords such as hirshfangers or cuttoes. Again, it is a matter of personal preference, but for dueling as well as for court wear, such a long blade would be detrimental as awkward.

In all, these are 'rapier' blades of notable vintage mounted in later hilts, as often the case, and reflect the personal preference of those who owned them. They do not reflect any particular classification or period type as personal preferences in blades and hilts dictated many variations in these sword forms which indeed existed contemporarily over long periods. The famed 'colichemarde' blade which focused on dueling remained in favor in the military long after falling out of favor in the civilian sector. Military heritage and tradition often is a factor which brings these kinds of anomalies into being it would seem.