Portuguese rapier blades

[urbanspaceman]

The ricasso on the silver hilt sword shows the maker mark in the squared ricasso cut in half (see attached).
The 40" one doesn't and the blade disappears into the hilt (again, see attached).
I find it hard to imagine that either sword has not been modified or chopped down at their ricassos.
There is definitely no indication of blade thinning on either sword.

[Jim McDougall]

These thin rapier blades were of course prevalent through the 17th century into the 18th. While they seem to have been contemporary to heavier arming blades through the 17th, the rapier and dueling swords were apparently maintained in the court and gentlemans swords. The so called transitional rapiers (a most nebulous area) seem to have been with these slender rapier blades in the small sword and court sword hilts in the 18th.

Attached is a Spanish rapier blade (though probably German made) which is believed from the Spanish nao Encarnacion which sank in storms off Panama Dec.3,1681. It had left Cartagena enroute to Porto Bello Panama, and among cargo had crates of sword blades.

This type of blade was of course known earlier in 17th c. As Toledo was in dire straits in the 17th century, Germany stepped in and produced blades as they were long well established as the key blade producers and continued as such well through the 19th c.

[urbanspaceman]

So: I am reminded Jim, of that Dutch duelling rapier/smallsword of the late 1600s... the one you have your eye on (see attached.
I don't know why I didn't hop over to that conclusion.
Here is a virtually identical blade inasmuch as it is thing and sharp and reasonably long.
This must have been before the 'First Blood' rules appeared.
But, I am convinced that brass hilted sword of mine with the 40" blade was longer before it was hilted thusly so my obvious next question is "What sort of hilts did these blades have back closer to the end of the 1600s".
Has anybody seen a long narrow rapier blade hilted as per the end of the 17thC?
It is beginning to appear that the transition to smaller swords began earlier than I had imagined if the English civil war Cavalier rapiers are anything to go by.
Am I missing something here?

[urbanspaceman]

A swashbuckler is a genre of European adventure literature that focuses on a heroic protagonist stock character who is skilled in swordsmanship, acrobatics, guile and possesses chivalrous ideals. A "swashbuckler" protagonist is heroic, daring, and idealistic: he rescues damsels in distress, protects the downtrodden, and uses duels to defend his honor or that of a lady or to avenge a comrade.
Swashbucklers often engage in daring and romantic adventures with bravado or flamboyance. Swashbuckler heroes are gentleman adventurers who dress elegantly and flamboyantly in coats, waistcoats, tight breeches, large feathered hats, and high leather boots, and they are armed with the thin rapiers used by aristocrats.

[urbanspaceman]

Am I right in realising that two styles of rapier existed contemporaneously?
The long, heavy, battlefield sword with cutting edges; and the not-so-long, narrow blades with no cutting edges for civilian wear.

[Radboud]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Am I right in realising that two styles of rapier existed contemporaneously?
The long, heavy, battlefield sword with cutting edges; and the not-so-long, narrow blades with no cutting edges for civilian wear.

I think our modern mindset likes to group everything into its own neat pockets, while the reality is that several types of swords co-existed simultaneously depending on the owners' location, fighting style, purpose, preference and wealth. Some of these swords we can easily group into a 'rapier' pocket, others into the 'smallsword' pocket. But many are just too grey.

So-call 'civilian rapiers' and smallswords were carried on the battlefield, while we also see soldiers in period art armed with complex hilted rapier style swords.

Maybe grouping swords by the fighting style rather than appearance would be easier. For example, rapier styles use both cuts (delivered from the wrist) and thrusts with a grip where you loop one or two fingers over the crossguard. Smallswords are thrust only with a grip that 'pinches' the quillon block. In contrast, broadswords and backswords are held in a hammer or handshake grip and used with sweeping, whole-body cuts.

Matt Easton has recently published a video with his criticism of the 'Military Rapier' term that raises some good points.

[urbanspaceman]

Thanks for that suggestion about Matt's recent video.
I think my issue returns again and again to the question of what sort of hilts would have been on those swords of mine originally, because I remain convinced they have been re-hilted.
Incidentally, my Shotley Bridge small-sword, from 1688, used a narrow broad-sword blade which is actually the same length as the SB horseman's sword, just having a lighter, fancier hilt and a more narrow blade. I don't think Scots and Northerners trusted the lightness and lack of cutting edge in the fashionable alternatives. Notice Graham's man (Tim Roth) in the Rob Roy film is using a transitional-ish rapier with a flat blade sharpened on both edges. I wonder who decided on that, and why?