Kindjal, etching / origin assistance

Gustav · 2nd August 2023, 03:18 PM

The mark on kindjal is of Zlatoust arms factory, but not the commonly seen one, in addition the tip with position of the grooves looks strange, as if the blade were shortened. Of course there are forgeries of Zlatoust weapons made - I am not able to say if this is the real thing or not.

Is there a mark on the other side of blade?

You can search for Zlatoust on forum.

https://pegasus-leaders.com/zlatoust-blade/

Gustav · 2nd August 2023, 07:37 PM

After some time I would say your example likely is the real thing.
The date could be 1880ties or 1890ties

Ren Ren · 3rd August 2023, 12:29 AM

This is a Cossack dagger produced by the Zlatoust Arms Factory (ЗЛАТОУСТЪ/Златоуст. Оружейная Фабрика). The blade is shortened, the shape is changed. I agree with Gustav on dating 1880-1890.
Daggers similar in shape were made at the beginning of the 20th century by order of the Cossack troops. On one side they have the abbreviation ЗОФ, on the other ККВ or ТКВ. It would be helpful to identify if you could show a photo of the back of your dagger.

Klop · 3rd August 2023, 07:19 PM

dear gents, thanks so much for the info. The combined knowledge here is great! I already suspected the tip was changed as the grooves are "running straight off" the blade instead of following the shape to the point. On the backside there is no etching or stamps at all. If there ever was etching I'd expect to see at least some remnants like on the front. There was a makeshift wooden handle all around the tang, i was pleased to discover a complete original tangshape underneath. Kind regards, Eric

Ren Ren · 4th August 2023, 03:24 AM

Cossacks for a long time preferred to order daggers from local craftsmen in the Caucasus. The state-owned arms factory in Zlatoust was far from the Caucasus and its managers had to make a lot of efforts to intercept orders)
Your dagger is one of the early examples similar to Caucasian blades. It has had a long hard life, but it is still an interesting and quite rare item.

Klop · 4th August 2023, 04:39 PM

Thanks Ren Ren,

I intend to recreate a handle with black buffalo horn and plain iron studs. It doesn't feel like a fancy piece that would have had marine ivory and precious metals. Besides that, it's way too difficult to source a walrus these days :-)

Most logical reason for the reshaping I think is that the tip was bent by (ab)use and at bending back it broke. Earlier in it's lifetime.

I know Japanese swords were shortened at the tang but I don't see why anyone would shorten a kindjal point this way without a very good reason.

kind regards,
Eric

Copycat · 5th August 2023, 06:56 PM

Hello Erik,

Those letters in circles could be the Zlatoust proof markings P and S. See below link.

https://www.warrelics.eu/forum/imper...atoust+kindjal

There are good examples of Zlatoust kindjals everywhere. Good luck with your hilt reconstruction.

Kind regards,

Ren Ren · 6th August 2023, 12:23 AM

Black buffalo horn is an excellent material for making this type of dagger handle. One of the conditions for ordering blades in Zlatoust was a price affordable to all Cossacks without exception (Cossacks paid for weapons and military equipment at their own expense). Most of these blades received a modest finish - buffalo horn or apricot wood was used for the handles. Wealthy Cossacks, who could order ivory or walrus tusk, purchased daggers from famous craftsmen in the Caucasus - in Vladikavkaz or Tiflis.

Your dagger could have been damaged for a myriad of reasons, I don't even want to guess some of them. I will only note that in the Soviet Union from about 1955 until 1991 it was strictly forbidden for private individuals to own such items under the threat of 3 years in prison.

Sincerely,
Serge

2nd August 2023, 03:18 PM	#1
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,295	The mark on kindjal is of Zlatoust arms factory, but not the commonly seen one, in addition the tip with position of the grooves looks strange, as if the blade were shortened. Of course there are forgeries of Zlatoust weapons made - I am not able to say if this is the real thing or not. Is there a mark on the other side of blade? You can search for Zlatoust on forum. https://pegasus-leaders.com/zlatoust-blade/ Last edited by Gustav; 2nd August 2023 at 07:33 PM. Reason: spellings

3rd August 2023, 12:29 AM	#3
Ren Ren Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Russia, Moscow Posts: 379	This is a Cossack dagger produced by the Zlatoust Arms Factory (ЗЛАТОУСТЪ/Златоуст. Оружейная Фабрика). The blade is shortened, the shape is changed. I agree with Gustav on dating 1880-1890. Daggers similar in shape were made at the beginning of the 20th century by order of the Cossack troops. On one side they have the abbreviation ЗОФ, on the other ККВ or ТКВ. It would be helpful to identify if you could show a photo of the back of your dagger. Last edited by Ren Ren; 3rd August 2023 at 12:42 AM. Reason: Clarification

3rd August 2023, 07:19 PM	#4
Klop Member Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 63	dear gents, thanks so much for the info. The combined knowledge here is great! I already suspected the tip was changed as the grooves are "running straight off" the blade instead of following the shape to the point. On the backside there is no etching or stamps at all. If there ever was etching I'd expect to see at least some remnants like on the front. There was a makeshift wooden handle all around the tang, i was pleased to discover a complete original tangshape underneath. Kind regards, Eric Attached Images

2nd August 2023, 07:37 PM	#2
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,295	After some time I would say your example likely is the real thing. The date could be 1880ties or 1890ties

4th August 2023, 03:24 AM	#5
Ren Ren Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Russia, Moscow Posts: 379	Cossacks for a long time preferred to order daggers from local craftsmen in the Caucasus. The state-owned arms factory in Zlatoust was far from the Caucasus and its managers had to make a lot of efforts to intercept orders) Your dagger is one of the early examples similar to Caucasian blades. It has had a long hard life, but it is still an interesting and quite rare item.

4th August 2023, 04:39 PM	#6
Klop Member Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 63	Thanks Ren Ren, I intend to recreate a handle with black buffalo horn and plain iron studs. It doesn't feel like a fancy piece that would have had marine ivory and precious metals. Besides that, it's way too difficult to source a walrus these days :-) Most logical reason for the reshaping I think is that the tip was bent by (ab)use and at bending back it broke. Earlier in it's lifetime. I know Japanese swords were shortened at the tang but I don't see why anyone would shorten a kindjal point this way without a very good reason. kind regards, Eric

5th August 2023, 06:56 PM	#7
Copycat Member Join Date: Apr 2023 Posts: 39	Hello Erik, Those letters in circles could be the Zlatoust proof markings P and S. See below link. https://www.warrelics.eu/forum/imper...atoust+kindjal There are good examples of Zlatoust kindjals everywhere. Good luck with your hilt reconstruction. Kind regards,

6th August 2023, 12:23 AM	#8
Ren Ren Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Russia, Moscow Posts: 379	Black buffalo horn is an excellent material for making this type of dagger handle. One of the conditions for ordering blades in Zlatoust was a price affordable to all Cossacks without exception (Cossacks paid for weapons and military equipment at their own expense). Most of these blades received a modest finish - buffalo horn or apricot wood was used for the handles. Wealthy Cossacks, who could order ivory or walrus tusk, purchased daggers from famous craftsmen in the Caucasus - in Vladikavkaz or Tiflis. Your dagger could have been damaged for a myriad of reasons, I don't even want to guess some of them. I will only note that in the Soviet Union from about 1955 until 1991 it was strictly forbidden for private individuals to own such items under the threat of 3 years in prison. Sincerely, Serge