Come and Take It! The Gonzalez Cannon

fernando · 25th July 2023, 11:41 AM

Concerning de Sosa and his adventures, we can read out there about his artillery, with some contradictions, but none mentioning the cannons as being of the culverin type. Or still i am missing further sources.
For the record, as you guys are most probably aware, de Sosa real name was Gaspar Castanho de Sousa, born in Portugal circa 1550.
From the Spanish 'Miguel de Cervantes Virtual Library', we can read the "Memory of the discovery that Gaspar Castaño de Sosa made in New Mexico, being lieutenant governor and captain general of the New Kingdom of León (July 27, 1590)"

"He ordered the Field Master to have the Royal box kept within short distance from the town, in that part where the town seemed to be strongest; And they did so, and he ordered two bronze shots* to be fired, and for this he ordered Joan Rodríguez Nieto, to be with the said guns and with their fuse ready, and he ordered Joan Rodríguez Nieto to fire one of the shots high *and so it was fired, and with it the harquebus, to see if this would scare them ... and for our safety the said Lieutenant told the Field Master to go to one side of the town, to a barracks that was there without people, and made Diego de Viruega, Francisco de Mancha, Diego Díaz de Berlanga, Joan Rodríguez Nieto go up to the top, with one of the said artillery pieces; And so they went up, although with a lot of work, because the Indians gave them a lot of war from behind a sleeve and trenches".

* I infer this was his bronze artillery; old idiomatic Castilian with no available translation.
So these pieces had to have some carrying or stand devices, but certainly not of big heavy dimensions; whether of a determined class or even local atypical casting ?

fernando · 25th July 2023, 12:00 PM

From the Spanish Royal Academy ... Historical dictionary of the Spanish language.

" The culevrina is documented for the first time, with the meaning 'artillery weapon with a barrel longer than 30 muzzle diameters * that throws projectiles, generally metallic, at a great distance', in the 15th century, in an anonymous Sales Letter (1451) and with the culubrine variant. It is recorded for the first time in the Recveil de dictionaires francoys, espaignolz et latins (1599), by H. Hornkens; In addition, it is collected in the Dictionary of Authorities of 1729. There are a large number of testimonies of the various types of culverin that have existed; among them, the most common is the medium (half) culverin. Like other ancient artillery weapons, they could be legitimate or bastard, depending on whether or not they met the established standards for their length and caliber. These standards have varied over time, so the characteristics of each piece must always be considered in context."

*
A typical way to determine artillery dimensions. Culverin barrels being equivalent to (also called) 30 calibers, their lengths, as already mentioned, measure circa 3 meters.

fernando · 25th July 2023, 04:47 PM

From Investigation Concerning Gaspar Castaño de Sosa’s
Unauthorized Expedition to New Mexico in 1590-1591,
Conducted by Captain Juan Morlete in 1591

Finally an exhaustive mention of de Sosa's artillery. I will not bore you to death with transcription of all details over this issue. I will just say that, the number of times that his artillery is mentioned in this paper, is countless. No typologies approached, only that he had at least three "artillery pieces", defined as (two) small and (one) gross. Whether they were of this or that specific type, it will be up to our imagination. I seem to understand that they were transported in the carts.
According to what is recorded, he either used them to assault natives and also to set defence from his national oppositors.

Jim McDougall · 26th July 2023, 05:08 PM

Masterfully researched and explained Fernando.

While understanding that trying to elaborate on the extraordinarily recorded details of this expedition, your summarizing them is much appreciated.
Lou brought to my attention the recent discovery of a Spanish gun found in southern Arizona which was referred to as a hackbus (haakbus, Dutch=hook gun). This was the root word for arquebus, basically the ancestor of the culverin, as I understand (corrections welcomed).

These haakbus were rampart guns (wall guns) and the hook was the feature extending in a hook or lug to steady the gun when firing by securing on a wall or battlement. In the field tripods or other makeshift devices worked as well.

Apparently Coronado in his 1541 expedition northward through Arizona had 6 of these guns, and archaeologists are confident this is one of them. These 40 pound pieces it notes were called 'versillos' (linguist assist plz), and it is noted such items had to be carried by horse or mule as larger equipment like carraiges or wagons would be impractical through unknown terrain.
Surely DeCosa had similar thinking, but it is noted he did have wagons of some sort.

The article noted was from "American Rifleman" , April 2023 by William Mapoles and Deni Seymour, as are the photos attached noting this gun is the earliest example of one forged in the New World (as shown in period woodcut).

fernando · 27th July 2023, 10:59 AM

My focus on de Sousa papers was to eliminate, or confirm, the existence of robust pieces like culverins. I can tell however that arcabuces were very often mentioned in his adventures. These had a limited caliber and were differentiated from proper artillery. If were to speculate on the type of 'small' an 'gross' artilley he had, we coud as well include falconetes and even the 'berços', these also breech loaders and available in various sizes.

... and lowering them they carried some of the weapons, so that there could not be more than five arquebuses, with which they withdrew and left a plaza where they were staying, the Indians leaving with five arquebuses and eleven swords, and nineteen saddles. , and nine pairs of horse weapons, and a lot of clothing, both for clothing and for bedding; seen by the Master of Campo the ravage that ...

.

midelburgo · 5th September 2023, 03:06 AM

Aside from being longer pieces than cannons, coulevrine types of the same diameter/caliber than cannon had thicker chamber walls, therefore a a heavier powder charge could be used. All this in order to have a greater range. This is why they were usually naval pieces as chasers in the bows. At broadsides, their length could be problematic in the recoil. Also used as coastal defence pieces. They were too heavy for field artillery and not really useful as siege artillery, where powder economies could be important.

25th July 2023, 11:41 AM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Concerning de Sosa and his adventures, we can read out there about his artillery, with some contradictions, but none mentioning the cannons as being of the culverin type. Or still i am missing further sources. For the record, as you guys are most probably aware, de Sosa real name was Gaspar Castanho de Sousa, born in Portugal circa 1550. From the Spanish 'Miguel de Cervantes Virtual Library', we can read the "Memory of the discovery that Gaspar Castaño de Sosa made in New Mexico, being lieutenant governor and captain general of the New Kingdom of León (July 27, 1590)" "He ordered the Field Master to have the Royal box kept within short distance from the town, in that part where the town seemed to be strongest; And they did so, and he ordered two bronze shots* to be fired, and for this he ordered Joan Rodríguez Nieto, to be with the said guns and with their fuse ready, and he ordered Joan Rodríguez Nieto to fire one of the shots high and so it was fired, and with it the harquebus, to see if this would scare them ... and for our safety the said Lieutenant told the Field Master to go to one side of the town, to a barracks that was there without people, and made Diego de Viruega, Francisco de Mancha, Diego Díaz de Berlanga, Joan Rodríguez Nieto go up to the top, with one of the said artillery pieces;* And so they went up, although with a lot of work, because the Indians gave them a lot of war from behind a sleeve and trenches". * I infer this was his bronze artillery; old idiomatic Castilian with no available translation. So these pieces had to have some carrying or stand devices, but certainly not of big heavy dimensions; whether of a determined class or even local atypical casting ? Last edited by fernando; 25th July 2023 at 01:58 PM.

25th July 2023, 12:00 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Further on the culverin typology ... From the Spanish Royal Academy ... Historical dictionary of the Spanish language. " The culevrina is documented for the first time, with the meaning 'artillery weapon with a barrel longer than 30 muzzle diameters * that throws projectiles, generally metallic, at a great distance', in the 15th century, in an anonymous Sales Letter (1451) and with the culubrine variant. It is recorded for the first time in the Recveil de dictionaires francoys, espaignolz et latins (1599), by H. Hornkens; In addition, it is collected in the Dictionary of Authorities of 1729. There are a large number of testimonies of the various types of culverin that have existed; among them, the most common is the medium (half) culverin. Like other ancient artillery weapons, they could be legitimate or bastard, depending on whether or not they met the established standards for their length and caliber. These standards have varied over time, so the characteristics of each piece must always be considered in context." * A typical way to determine artillery dimensions. Culverin barrels being equivalent to (also called) 30 calibers, their lengths, as already mentioned, measure circa 3 meters.

25th July 2023, 04:47 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	And with this one, i am done ! From Investigation Concerning Gaspar Castaño de Sosa’s Unauthorized Expedition to New Mexico in 1590-1591, Conducted by Captain Juan Morlete in 1591 Finally an exhaustive mention of de Sosa's artillery. I will not bore you to death with transcription of all details over this issue. I will just say that, the number of times that his artillery is mentioned in this paper, is countless. No typologies approached, only that he had at least three "artillery pieces", defined as (two) small and (one) gross. Whether they were of this or that specific type, it will be up to our imagination. I seem to understand that they were transported in the carts. According to what is recorded, he either used them to assault natives and also to set defence from his national oppositors.

26th July 2023, 05:08 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,195	Masterfully researched and explained Fernando. While understanding that trying to elaborate on the extraordinarily recorded details of this expedition, your summarizing them is much appreciated. Lou brought to my attention the recent discovery of a Spanish gun found in southern Arizona which was referred to as a hackbus (haakbus, Dutch=hook gun). This was the root word for arquebus, basically the ancestor of the culverin, as I understand (corrections welcomed). These haakbus were rampart guns (wall guns) and the hook was the feature extending in a hook or lug to steady the gun when firing by securing on a wall or battlement. In the field tripods or other makeshift devices worked as well. Apparently Coronado in his 1541 expedition northward through Arizona had 6 of these guns, and archaeologists are confident this is one of them. These 40 pound pieces it notes were called 'versillos' (linguist assist plz), and it is noted such items had to be carried by horse or mule as larger equipment like carraiges or wagons would be impractical through unknown terrain. Surely DeCosa had similar thinking, but it is noted he did have wagons of some sort. The article noted was from "American Rifleman" , April 2023 by William Mapoles and Deni Seymour, as are the photos attached noting this gun is the earliest example of one forged in the New World (as shown in period woodcut). Attached Images

27th July 2023, 10:59 AM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	My focus on de Sousa papers was to eliminate, or confirm, the existence of robust pieces like culverins. I can tell however that arcabuces were very often mentioned in his adventures. These had a limited caliber and were differentiated from proper artillery. If were to speculate on the type of 'small' an 'gross' artilley he had, we coud as well include falconetes and even the 'berços', these also breech loaders and available in various sizes. ... and lowering them they carried some of the weapons, so that there could not be more than five arquebuses, with which they withdrew and left a plaza where they were staying, the Indians leaving with five arquebuses and eleven swords, and nineteen saddles. , and nine pairs of horse weapons, and a lot of clothing, both for clothing and for bedding; seen by the Master of Campo the ravage that ... . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 27th July 2023 at 11:20 AM.

5th September 2023, 03:06 AM	#6
midelburgo Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 264	Aside from being longer pieces than cannons, coulevrine types of the same diameter/caliber than cannon had thicker chamber walls, therefore a a heavier powder charge could be used. All this in order to have a greater range. This is why they were usually naval pieces as chasers in the bows. At broadsides, their length could be problematic in the recoil. Also used as coastal defence pieces. They were too heavy for field artillery and not really useful as siege artillery, where powder economies could be important.