Java dress questions and translation

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Superb, the work of a master.

In respect of the hilt.

We're used to seeing keris hilts in an agreed orientation.

That agreement is something that is correct for dress and it suits well the rapier grip.

However, the most useful grip for close combat is the reverse grip, that is, the grip that was used on the Keris Buda. This grip allows immense power to be delivered to the point, and is ideal for a situation where combat has become something like cage fighting, but one hand has a sharp pointy thing in it.

In fact, with the reverse grip you have several blows available with a single hand, you can punch, you can use the pommel, & you can use the blade.

With the reverse grip on a dagger you need to be able to support the edge of your hand, on a keris, the gonjo provides this support when the reverse grip is used.

A learned friend within these pages has also made reference to this reverse grip where the larger Kris/Sundang are concerned and that it is a "lost" grip for what of a better word, and your notations Alan support this. I suspect "lost" due to gentry over taking society. Where these larger brothers are concerned, I call it the sabre grip.

If I am reading your notes correctly, with reference to the grip, is it still holding the blade it the tradition position/orientation though... please correct me if I am wrong, this is what I feel when reading and handling the keris of this nature.

What I have also proposed in past conversations about the Keris, is that when in this orientation, to easily flip the orientation of the blade 180 degrees which is to also have a very positive grip in and and the application becomes a sabre which to me is the last hack and slash do or die, gotta get sh#t done aspect of melee... and having the gonjo protrude beyond the knuckles, this supports a devastating punch in melee combat...

Gavin

[A. G. Maisey]

Hold your arm straight out in front of you.

make a fist.

turn your fist so that the clenched fingers of the right hand are oriented towards your left side.

now insert the hilt so that the point of the blade points to the ground.

this is what I call a reverse grip, others have different names for this grip.

At one time in Solo, during the 1970's, my neighbour had been a participant during the Merdeka activities, we had a few conversations on use of a knife as a weapon. Some of his comments were that in actual use as a weapon the knife can be held is a variety of orientations, depending upon the situation.

For close combat where the fight is more like a brawl than gentlemanly duelling, the reverse grip that I have described was the preferred grip.

[Gavin Nugent]

Thanks Alan, understood. It is a very strong grip that also prevents wrist locks in this manner of stand offs that you note.

I shall reference the grip I note as the sabre grip.

With reference to a hilt orientation like this keris and held like a sabre, do you feel there is validity to this?

I ask as the bugis tangs are robust, where if a Java blade, they tend to be longer and thinner in more modern periods, and would the Java keris suffer under this sabre method, as they are to my eye designed as the rapier application noted above.

It is all very interesting the art of one on one combat...

I digress but I recall a conversation had with a veteran special services chap many years ago, referencing several methods of holding a single edged knife, the tradition grip with the knife held in the fist upwards, being the easier to defend, the reverse grip which you note as being much harder to defend from and devastating when applied as it both slashes and stabs, but what struck me with immediate horror was his sharing of the person who holds the single edged knife like a table knife with the forefinger extended well over the spine of the blade... a fighters characteristic he referred to as experienced, evil and sadistic, a fighter who wants to toy with his enemy and break them down one cut at a time...

Gavin

[A. G. Maisey]

Gavin, since the middle of the 18th century, the keris in Jawa has been much like the small sword was in England & Europe, this from Raffles.

However, even through until today, high quality Jawa keris will have a very robust tang. The needle thin tang that we sometimes see on Jawa keris is usually a product of time & erosion, if we look at the place where the tang emerges from the gonjo, that will give a far better idea of the original thickness of the tang.

As for "playing with opponents", well, the gentleman to whom I referred in my previous post was rather scathing of the idea of fighting or duelling with a knife, he was of the opinion that if you needed to actually fight, it indicated that you had improperly prepared, firstly, no matter how good you might be, you would very likely get cut yourself, secondly, in his opinion, the well planned attack should see the end of any combat before it even started, ideally from behind, a single blow, or as you walk past, again, a single blow.

To that man, getting involved in actual fighting was amateurish & stupid, if you were a professional you did not give the opponent the opportunity to strike you, with knife, or with any other part of his body.

[Gavin Nugent]

Thank you Alan, I shall take a more thorough approach to viewing the pesi.

On the other matter.... that sounds a like more like assassination than war... such actions do lead to the later... I get both points though...

Gavin

[A. G. Maisey]

I rather doubt that the gentleman to whom I refer was involved in many, if any war-type situations. My landlady at that time told me he had had "special duties". In conversation he never really mentioned any sort of war or battlefield type of activity.